Welcome back to Tuesday! This week, we’re back in Kholinar for Interesting Developments on the Fused side of the war… and they are very interesting. Not to mention terrifying. On the assumption that you’ve already read Chapter 14, “Voice,” come on into the discussion and let us know how you feel about the probable direction things are taking.
Reminder: we’ll potentially be discussing spoilers for the entirety of the series up until now—if you haven’t read ALL of the published entries of the Stormlight Archive, best to wait to join us until you’re done. Please do not include spoilers from the upcoming Interludes (partially released as readings) or the Dawnshard prologue.
In this week’s discussion we make no allusions to any other Sanderson books, so you’re safe.
Chapter Recap
WHO: Venli
WHERE: Kholinar
WHEN: Day 2
Venli attends a meeting of the rulers of the Fused, in which she learns that Kaladin’s in Big Trouble, a disturbing leader has reawoken from her slumber, and that a raid on Urithiru is looming in the near future…
Overall Reactions
… a pinnacle room added by the Fused architects. Large and cylindrical, it was the center of the crown shape. This place was the home of the Nine: leaders of the Fused.
A: This was an “Aha!” moment for me. So this is how they’re governed! I can’t help wondering if the listeners’ “The Five” was modeled after this tradition, and how they were able to retain that knowledge.
L: Perhaps some small bit of memory remained. They still knew about songs, though they’d lost most of them.
The Nine were already there, of course. They couldn’t leave. They’d been entombed in stone.
Nine pillars adorned the center of the chamber, rising in a circle. The stones had been Soulcast into shape—with people inside them. The Nine lived here, permanently melded into the pillars. Again there was an organic feel to the construction, as if the pillars had grown there like trees around the Nine.
The pillars twisted and tapered, shrinking and growing into the chests of the Nine but leaving their heads and the tops of their carapaced shoulders bare. Most had at least one arm free.
A: Well, that’s just creepy. I don’t know what else to say about it. How on Roshar did that tradition get started? Why would you do that? Ack.
L: Good question. It does seem rather counterintuitive to have your leaders stuck in one place, where they could be easily attacked. Though… seeing as how they’d just be reborn, maybe that doesn’t matter so much. Maybe it’s meant as a sort of… way to deprive them of distractions? If they can’t move, they can have no hobbies or anything else to fill their time aside from thinking about ruling.
A: I guess that’s true… As you say, they can easily be reborn, and Venli addresses that:
Though… if they really did want to leave their imprisonment, they could simply have themselves killed. A Fused could also will their spirit from their body, freeing it to seek another host. … So the Nine could leave, if they wanted. In that light, these tombs were a flagrant, wasteful act—the ultimate price for this show was paid not by the Nine, but by the poor singers they had killed to give them bodies.
A: As always, this whole concept makes me shudder. As a whole—and maybe this is because we always see it from Venli’s side—the Fused seem awfully cavalier about the everyday singers. This expectation that the ordinary people should be willing to give up their bodies “for the greater good” is one that grates on me personally, for a lot of reasons. Then again, the whole “ruling elite” notion is one that grates on me personally, so… I suppose that fits.
L: Forced (or even heavily encouraged) martyrdom is really disturbing, for sure.
A: Brainwashed, you might say. I don’t have a problem with martyrdom per se, but I do prefer that the leaders are willing to be martyrs, rather than expecting the common folk to be martyrs for them. Ugh.
“Leshwi,” one of the Nine said. “What of the suppressor we sent to be tested? Did it work?”
“It worked,” Leshwi said, “but it was also lost. …
“I take no responsibility for this error,” Leshwi said. “You must speak to the Pursuer to find record of the mistake.”
A: Oh, do we detect a hint of dissension among the gods? This isn’t exactly proof one way or the other, but it certainly casts doubt on the theory that Leshwi and the Pursuer worked together to ambush Kaladin.
L: Thank goodness for small favors.
“You think I could be defeated by a common human?” the Pursuer demanded. “This Windrunner must be of the Fourth Ideal—something I was led to believe had not yet happened. Perhaps our reconnaissance teams have lost their edge, during the long time spent between Returns.”
A: Liar, liar, pants on fire… and a little later, it’s clear that Leshwi knows he’s lying about the fabrial not working.
Also, this accusation ticks Leshwi off more than a little. It would seem that these two aren’t exactly besties.
Buy the Book
Rhythm of War
L: I already hate this guy. Full of himself? Condescending? Lying? Trying to kill Kaladin? Yeah, no. He’s on my bad side for sure.
A: Shall we add him to our #noredemption list?
L: Eh. I don’t like him, but he isn’t actively betraying any of our MCs like Sadeas, Amaram, or Moash. He just falls on the “minor sub-villain” list for me.
Millennia ago, Lezian was the first Fused to be killed by a human. To avoid the shame of such death, upon returning to life, Lezian ignored all orders and rational arguments—and went into battle seeking only the man who had killed him. … Any time he is killed, Lezian ignores everything else until he has claimed the life of the one who killed him. Six thousand years, and he’s never failed. … As soon as the Isolation was begun, he’d kill himself, so he’d never return to Braize permanently after having died by human hand. … Lezian has endangered our plans, undermined strategies, and ruined more missions than I can count.
A: So Lezian is a prideful wretch who doesn’t mind what else goes wrong, as long as he can get his revenge when someone kills him.
L: Ugh. What an insufferable jackass. “Waaaah I was bested in battle and rather than admit that the other person was more skilled I’m going to hunt them down over and over until finally I get lucky and take them out, that’ll show them!”
A: EXACTLY. It kind of cracks me up that he was the first of the Fused to be killed by a human, and he’s never gotten over it.
Also, Lore Ahoy! I was baffled by this at first, because I thought that once the Fused died, they returned to Braize and that was it for that round. Fortunately for my sanity, Venli asked and Leshwi answered: it turns out that the Fused could die and return many times during a Desolation. Return, kill, die, return kill die, return-kill-die … years or decades, until the Heralds died too, and the lock was reset. Wow. How many poor singers gave up their bodies during those longer Desolations?
“Regardless, before an Isolation began, that one always managed to find and kill any humans who had bested him.
A: The more I learn about Lezian, the more I dislike him. I don’t think Leshwi likes him either, since she deliberately taunts him into losing his temper in front of the Nine, and as a result they rule that she has first claim on Kaladin’s life. Why? Well, we’ll all have our own guesses on that! L: I’d say it’s pretty obvious that Leshwi doesn’t like a lot of the other Fused.
A: Agreed. She may respect them, with that respect you give a rabid wolf, but she doesn’t like or trust them.
None of them realize she’s trying to protect that Windrunner, Venli thought. Maybe she doesn’t realize it herself.
A: One good thing about Venli being the scheming wretch she is… she recognizes a scheme when she sees it, even if she can’t tell what’s behind it. Leshwi straight-up says that she has chosen her position carefully, what Venli earlier thought of as “the very crust of the unimportant and the very dregs of the important” … and in a few minutes we’ll see why.
L: I’m sure that Leshwi is protecting him because she sees an honorable soul in him, but I can’t help but poke the ship a little here, for fun.
A: You know, I’m not really on board the ship, but it’s pretty cool to see the respect that has developed between the two of them. I begin to think that Leshwi wouldn’t kill him even if she got a clear advantage over him, so… I dunno. So long as the Pursuer follows the edict of the Nine, I’m betting she’ll avoid actually getting into a fight with Kaladin so she can keep her “dibs” as a shield for him.
A figure darkened the doorway of the chamber, backlit by sunlight. It was a tall femalen, of the fannahn-im…
Leshwi hissed. “Gods, no. Not her.”
“What?” Venli asked as the room flooded with whispers from the others. “Who is she?”
“I thought her mad,” Leshwi said to Agony. “How…”
A: This does not look good.
L: Mad military leaders are rarely good news for anyone.
“She was one of the Nine for many centuries,” Leshwi said. “Until she decided it was too… hampering upon her ambitions. After the last Return, and her madness, she was to remain asleep.… Why…”
“Raboniel, Lady of Wishes,”
A: And that, my friends, sounds like a name to give you nightmares.
L: Though not as bad as her other name, which we learn about later in the chapter.
“… There are few among them of the Fourth Ideal—perhaps only one individual— and they do not have full access to the tower, now that the Sibling is dead. We must strike now. We must seize the tower from them. … You have nearly perfected the suppression fabrials,” Raboniel said. “Do not forget, it is technology I discovered from the tower itself thousands of years ago. I have a plan to use it in a more dramatic way. As the Sibling is essentially a deadeye, I should be able to turn the tower’s defenses against its owners.”
A: Oh, this is not good. This is very not good.
L: Yeah, not good at all. I’m terrified that we’re going to see a prolonged siege, here. A few things I want to point out other than that, though. 1, that Radiant of the Fourth Ideal’s gotta be Jasnah, right?
A: I would assume so, yes, although I’m not sure how they know. Taravangian, maybe? Malata?
L: Well, she was using her powers pretty openly in the big battle at the end of Oathbringer. Maybe they just saw it then.
2, I find it really interesting that they’re also using the terminology “deadeye.” Since this is a word that the spren use themselves, it indicates that the Fused are in contact with them. We’ve seen Fused in Shadesmar, so this isn’t a huge surprise, I just find it intriguing that they’re adopting the spren’s terminology.
A: Hmm. I wonder, now… how long has that term been around? There have to have been occasional incidents where someone betrayed their oaths and created a deadeye, prior to the Recreance, so maybe it’s been around forever. It’s also possible that Sanderson is just “using the translation we know” to describe it… but I don’t know.
L: 3, so the Sibling is a deadeye, eh? I think this is the first indication we’ve had of this, up until now it’s always been either “dead” or “sleeping.” This is really good information to have. We know through Adolin’s efforts with Maya that maybe this isn’t a permanent condition, so… maybe the Sibling can be saved!
A: That was a shock. It’s really disturbing to think of one of the three great Bondsmith spren as a deadeye. Also, that would imply that Melishi betrayed his Ideals, wouldn’t it? Would the Sibling see the entrapment of Ba-Ado-Mishram (or possibly the resulting damage to the singers) as a betrayal, or did he do something else too? Since we don’t know the Ideals of the other Bondsmiths, we can only guess at this point. I’d love to see the Sibling revived, but… if they’re really a deadeye, I don’t think it looks promising. (Also, if it’s going to be similar to Maya, I want Maya revived first!)
“The device preventing us from attacking them there can be inverted. We will need to lure the Elsecaller and the Bondsmith away. Their oaths may be advanced enough to push through the suppression, much as the Unmade have done at the tower in the past. With them gone, I can lead a force into Urithiru and seize it from within—and the Radiants will be unable to resist.”
A: YIKES.
L: Yikes indeed. This does not bode well for our heroes.
“Raboniel is a scholar … We used to call her Lady of Pains, until she decided she didn’t like the title. … During the last Return, she developed a disease intended to kill all humans on the planet. Near the end, it was discovered that the disease would likely kill many singers as well. She released it anyway… only to find, to all of our fortunes, that it did not work as expected. Fewer than one in ten humans were killed, and one in a hundred singers. … Extinction is the natural escalation of this war. If you forget why you are fighting, then victory itself becomes the goal. The longer we fight, the more detached we become. Both from our own minds, and from our original Passions.”
A: Back in chapter 11, Venli noted that Leshwi insisted that “the conquest of Roshar was being undertaken on behalf of the common singer people.” Here, we see her awareness that some (many?) of the Fused are losing sight of that purpose. It would seem, in context, that she fears Raboniel may be one of those who seek victory for itself, rather than for the sake of the mortal singers.
L: Can we also talk for a minute about how she used a biological weapon that was proven to wipe out their own people?! I mean… this isn’t a huge surprise, it’s already been shown just how cavalier they are towards the singers’ lives (the afore-mentioned encouraged martyrdom), but it’s still troubling AF from a reader’s perspective. And from Venli’s as well, thankfully. At least she has some morals.
A: Right? As if genocide weren’t bad enough, she just shrugged off the damage to her own people as acceptable corollary damage. I do not like this “Lady of Pains.” And now she has a plan to invade the Tower, making use of “the king who has given himself to us” and provided security details. Taravangian, you filthy traitor.
A: As for what Raboniel will do…
“What is her true game?” Leshwi whispered to Craving. “Raboniel has never really been interested in the war or its tactics. This must be about something more. She wants the opportunity to experiment upon the Sibling.…”
A: Maybe so, maybe no. She’s certainly got something planned that she’s not telling anyone yet:
In addition, this endeavor will give me the opportunity to test some… theories I have developed while slumbering these last millennia. I am increasingly certain I have discovered a path that will lead to an end to the war.”
Leshwi hissed out slowly, and Venli felt cold. It seemed that whatever Raboniel thought would end the war would involve techniques best left untouched.
A: … And probably wouldn’t quite follow the Geneva Conventions (to borrow a reaction from one of the beta readers). So her biological warfare failed to effect a complete genocide last time (though one in ten dead is a pretty horrific death rate); what kind of hellish scheme does she have to destroy all the humans this time?
L: To put this into perspective. We have to look at this in terms of “total population vs. mortality rate,” since Leshwi only gives us those statistics with her “one in ten” number. So. The current coronavirus death rate for total world population appears to be about 0.06% so far. The 1918 Spanish Flu’s mortality rate was about 2.7%. Raboniel’s disease that she created was a staggering 10%. Think about this for a second in terms of how much the coronavirus has affected modern society—and then consider a world in which people don’t have advanced medical techniques, or methods of instantaneous communication (we don’t know if they had fabrials for this at this point, back then). This would have been catastrophic.
A: If you don’t like percentages, the current reported COVID-19 death rate in the USA is that about 6 people out of every 10,000 have died. Raboniel’s disease killed 1 out of 100 of the singers and about 1 in 10 of the humans.. We’re talking two and three orders of magnitude difference. (By the way, please don’t use our numbers to prove anything. We’re just doing the best we can, quick and dirty, with CDC and Wikipedia sources.)
L: The only real-world worse example is the bubonic plague, which killed off approximately ⅓ of the continent on which it was active (that’s 33%). And that lives on in horror stories, art, and fiction to this very day, almost 700 years later.
“Do you truly think you can end the war?”
“I’m certain of it,” Raboniel said to Derision. “I have had a long time to ponder on the discoveries made before the end of the last Return. … They imprisoned some of the Unmade in these, Leshwi,” Raboniel said. “How close do you think they are to discovering they could do the same for us? Can you imagine it? Forever imprisoned in a gemstone, locked away, able to think but unable to ever break free?”
“One way or another,” Raboniel said, “this is the final Return. The humans will soon discover how to imprison us. If not, well, the best of us who remain are but a few steps from madness. We must find a solution to this war.”
A: Well… I have to admit, if Navani or Jasnah could figure out a way to trap Fused in a gemstone, they’d trap every last one of them. I’m not sure Dalinar or Kaladin would, but the Queens would both be totally on board with it.
L: I can’t entirely say that I would blame them, either, since they’re trying to save their people. Then there’s also the fact that we know that Odium is influencing the Fused…
A: I’ll admit to mixed feelings… Genocide, either direction, is deeply disturbing; at the same time, this protracted multi-millennium war needs to end somehow. All in all, if trapping all the Fused and leaving the singers alive would end it, I think I’d be okay.
L: Is it genocide, if they’re being imprisoned for eternity? Is being imprisoned for war crimes the same as being killed? Lots of really intense philosophical/moral questions, here.
A: Truly. Whether it would work or not, Raboniel is using that fear as a means to push her own agenda. Leshwi totally doesn’t trust her, and now we have a hint at what the beginning, at least, of Venli’s arc will be: Accompany Raboniel in this effort to seize the Tower. How? We’ll have to wait and see.
“So we must prevent a catastrophe. This land is for the ordinary singers to inherit. I will not leave it desolate simply to prove we can murder better than our enemies.”
L: I’m really glad to see this from Leshwi. Not that I’m entirely surprised… she’s been shown to be pretty ethically sound, throughout this.
A: I still have a little trouble reconciling her interactions with Moash in Oathbringer with this honorable person in Rhythm of War. It’s possible, though, that making him Vyre and giving him the Honorblade wasn’t up to her. And we’re definitely seeing a different side of her now. It is good to see that someone still has the original goal in mind.
Humans
“What of the Stormblessed?” a voice called out, thickly accented, from the recesses of the grand chamber. … Vyre. The human, once called Moash. … Why did the Nine continue to suffer him? Not only that, why had they given him an Honorblade, one of the most precious relics on Roshar? … “He’ll stop you,” Vyre said. “You should have a plan for dealing with him.”
A: Shut. Up. You. Traitor.
L: Took the words right out of my mouth.
“I’m not afraid of a Windrunner, no matter how… mythical his reputation may be growing,” Raboniel said. “We will focus our attention on the Bondsmith and the Elsecaller. They are more dangerous than any simple soldier.”
A: Well, let’s see how that works out for you, eh?
L: Mmhmm.
Singers/Fused
Some of the Fused on Braize slumbered, or… hibernated? Meditated? They were coming aware in groups, and joining the battle. But several in particular had Leshwi worried. Perhaps terrified.
A: We already had hints of this, but it’s nice to have it spelled out for sure: They’re coming from Braize in waves. I wonder if this is how it’s always been, and one of the reasons why the Heralds were able to have time to prepare the humans for the coming Desolations.
The thought of newly-arrived Fused that have Leshwi terrified, though, is definitely worrisome! Why would she be terrified of her own side? (Of course, that question gets answered, sort of, later in the chapter—but on my first read, this was really scary!)
L: Yeah, I think anyone in their right mind would be afraid of someone who’s willing to resort to biological warfare. I’m just hoping that that’s the worst of it, and we don’t have anyone who’s even worse still waiting in the wings…
Though all Fused were trained as warriors, many had other skills. Some were engineers, scientists, architects. She thought perhaps they’d all once been soldiers before being granted immortality, but the time they’d had to grow since was expansive.
A: In this chapter we see again the shanay-im, the Heavenly Ones who use Gravitation. Then there are the fannahn-im, “Those Ones of Alteration” who use Transformation. And:
Nex-im, Those Ones of Husks, the ninth brand of Fused. She had heard them spoken of; supposedly very few existed.
A: I’d be just as happy to find out there’s only one… But what Surge does he use? My first thought was Division, but Transportation might be more probable. Thoughts?
L: Uhhhh. You got me? I remember us speculating on this back when he first showed up, and I’ve just got no clue.
These two had not been among those who had built the palace, for they sat with vacant stares.
Timbre pulsed to the Rhythm of the Lost. Gone. Like so many of the Fused, their minds had been claimed by the infinite cycle of death and rebirth.
Perhaps there was a reason not to envy their immortality.
A: I’ve seen a number of theories as to why the cycle drives them insane, and I don’t really have a strong opinion on it.
L: To me, it seems pretty obvious. Forced to continue living, time and time again? Seeing the world change around you while you just… continue to be forced into a seemingly endless cycle of death and war? Yeah. I can’t possibly see how that would drive anyone mad.
A: This is mostly a reminder: there are a lot of these lost souls. And even many of the ones who aren’t so lost are… well, not entirely there either. As Leshwi says of Lezian,
And he’s growing worse. As all of us are, I suppose…
A: To be fair, dude sounds like he started off with less than a full pouch of spheres, so there’s that.
L: I love this turn of phrase and I need to remember to start using it.
Avendla was their name for Alethkar; Venli’s powers instantly knew the meaning of the word. Land of the Second Advance. Her abilities stopped there, however, and she couldn’t answer the more interesting question. Why was it called that?
A: Sandersoooooooon!!! I hate it when he does that. Tidbit of fascinating information… and then he hangs a lampshade on it to make sure we don’t miss the fact he’s not going to answer it. Argh.
L: Grade A lampshade hanging. I approve.
Bruised & Broken
Not just Awe, but Craving. Were new Fused being made? Could someone like her aspire to this immortality?
Timbre pulsed a warning inside her, and Venli forcibly resisted those instincts. … Perhaps as a Surgebinder, she should have been naturally selfless. Naturally noble. Like Eshonai.
Venli was neither.
A: It’s pretty clear that Venli’s natural inclination is still the self-centered glory hound, but at least she’s resisting, now, with the prompting of her spren. I have to wonder why Timbre ever chose her—other than that she was the only one available, once Eshonai died. I think Venli is fully aware of that, too.
L: I love the fact that she’s such a flawed character. Kaladin, Shallan, and Dalinar are flawed too, of course, but not quite in the same way. Venli is selfish. She’s a traitor, and hasn’t even had the courage to admit as such to the people she betrayed. Her likable moments are few and far between. Now, this is entirely my own take on it and I’m sure that there are people out there who love her (just like there are people who hate Kaladin or any of the other characters I love), but it definitely seems as though she’s got a lot less fans than any of the other POV characters, and for good reason. This is not to say that she isn’t believable—I think she’s a great character, in that there are absolutely people out there who are completely self centered. But if I met her in the real world, I’d probably intensely dislike her.
Should she not have become a queen for these actions?
Timbre pulsed another warning, comforting this time. Odium would never give her these honors—Venli had been deceived. Her lusts had led to great pain and destruction.
A: I really want to like Venli, but it’s so hard. Even her acceptance of her new role is only because Timbre keeps reminding her that Odium lied to her, and she was never going to get the honors she “deserved.”
Why is it that I can handle everyone else’s version of “broken,” but Venli’s drives me up the wall?
L: Because she has no inner impetus to recognize her own flaws, I think. Everyone else is actively working to better themselves because they have been made to face their own flaws. Sometimes they fail (as Kaladin and Shallan are in the process of doing), but they’re still trying. I’d put forward that Venli is only becoming a better person because someone outside of herself keeps reminding her of her flaws. She’s not actively doing so herself—just passively saying “Yeah, sure, I messed up and did awful things but oh well.” Sort of like Moash, except with him, everything he did wrong “wasn’t his fault” or is internally justified. With Venli, she knows she personally messed up, but she never seems to be able to take that next step to actively atone for her mistakes.
A: Let’s hope she makes some progress in this book, then, eh?
What We Missed (In the Timeskip)
Gone was the ornate, but boring human fortress. In its place stood a grand construction that used many of the original foundations and walls, but expanded upon them in a unique design. Instead of boxy lines, it contained grand arcs, with large ridges sweeping down from the sides like curved blades. These multiplied toward the top, the ridges rising to points.
A: Looks like Kholinar—or at least the palace—has had an extensive remodel. We don’t get a lot about the city itself, except for the new towers for the high-level shanay-im, but they really put their stamp on the palace. We learn a little later that the work was done by the fannahn-im, “Those Ones of Alteration”—what we know as Transformation.
L: This is both really cool and really sad. When an invading force destroys historical landmarks I always get really sad about it, but in this case… this land was theirs to begin with, so it’s not as cut and dry.
A: I can’t help wondering just how long Kholinar has been there in one form or another. Was it originally a singer city, with those windblades shaped by the fannahn-im just like the new palace? So much we don’t know…
Fabrial Technology & Spheres
All gemstones leak Stormlight at a slow rate—but so long as the crystal structure remains mostly intact, the spren cannot escape. Managing this leakage is important, as many fabrials also lose Stormlight through operation. All of this is tied up in the intricacies of the art. As is understanding one last vital kind of spren: logicspren.
A: Sure, just drop that on me casually, and then saunter off whistling. Fiiiiiine. What about logicspren??
We’ll be leaving the speculation to you in the comments, so have fun and remember to be respectful of the opinions of others! You all have been great about marking spoilers for other series; thank you! And keep up the good work.
Alice is, with some reluctance, settling into a PNW autumn. It’s raining again. Still, volleyball practice is starting, and that’s not nothing.
Lyndsey is missing her faire family dearly. In these bylines, she’ll be giving some shout-outs to fellow local performers or vendors who could really use the support. This week, check out The Harlot Queens; sultry, singing Queens performing delightfully hilarious displays of debauchery. If you’re an aspiring author, a cosplayer, or just like geeky content, follow her work on Facebook or Instagram.
I find it an interesting choice of words regarding the sibling: “The Sibling is essentially a deadeye.” Not “The Sibling is a deadeye.” To me, that means that it isn’t one, technically speaking, which means that there are options that won’t require “dramatic” actions like Adolin/Maya.
I got the impression that the fannahn-im where using cohesion or (less likely I feel) tension, instead of transformation, no?
Well, that sure was interesting! I sense the main plot coming into focus. I’ll probably need to think about it some more before being able to comment more fully.
Meanwhile, I have a new theory! More of a follow-on from the last chapter.
Is it possible that Shallan has met Restares in the past? Maybe, though it would be odd for an Alethi lord to visit a place in the middle of nowhere in a different country.
Is it possible that Shallan’s mother knew Restares and was a member of the Sons of Honor? At first I discounted this but it seems that while they venerate the Heralds they hate the Radiants. At least, I get no sense that they like the Radiants. So if Shallan’s mother saw her becoming a Radiant wouldn’t that especially freak her out? As a side note, I’d imagine that people in Jah Keved is more receptive to the Sons of Honor in general since they’re more religious than the Alethi.
Let’s assume that Shallan’s mother was in fact a member of the Sons of Honor. Then until Shallan’s mother died, the place would not have been welcoming for the Ghostbloods. So why would the Ghostbloods be interested in the place after she died? Surely there would have been better opportunities if they simply wanted political power or the like?
So, here’s the idea: let’s assume that while a Perpendicularity is the easiest natural way to travel between Shadesmar and the physical realm, it’s not the only natural way (ignoring man-made structures like Oathgates). For example, Elsecallers can shift between at any point if they know how (Jasnah doesn’t currently). So perhaps there’s places where the gap between the realms is a bit weaker and access is possible though perhaps expensive and requires the right knowledge. Would the Ghostbloods be interested in such a thing? Definitely – they’d want their own secret ways in and out of Shadesmar and to control them. They wouldn’t want to be constrained by other groups. The Sons of Honor would also be interested in such things, particularly since they were experimenting with travel between planets. Without the Oathgates the only known reliable way is via the Horneater Peaks. But I seem to remember reading somewhere there being hints that the Ghostbloods had another method to travel to/from Shadesmar, possibly multiple methods (I seem to remember someone commenting that they seem to have a route in northern Alethkar or something)
So let’s say that somewhere at or near the Davar estate is a place that offers a route to and from Shadesmar that is not as cheap and easy as a Perpendicularity or an Oathgate but is practical. Maybe Shallan’s mother even married into the family to try to find it? Maybe the Ghostbloods got some hints because of this and investigated and then when Shallan’s mother died they decided to move in and take over.
This might also help explain why Mraize sent Shallan’s brothers away. It was to stop her coming back and possibly discovering something, on top of the reasons he gave Shallan.
And of course, this could easily factor into Shallan’s hidden past, either directly or indirectly.
PS I might be out of date on certain things with regards to Words of Brandon or have forgotten some things, so some ideas might already be invalidated or confirmed.
“A: I can’t help wondering just how long Kholinar has been there in one form or another. Was it originally a singer city, with those windblades shaped by the fannahn-im just like the new palace? So much we don’t know…”
Worth remembering that most of the major cities are laid out like salt on a vibrating plate (from Kabsal in Way of Kings). When discussing the flying ship, one of the Nine mentioned that the humans are pretty ignorant about the “the nature of the tones of the world.” Makes me think that most of the major cities were originally built by the singers in accordance with those tones.
Me: Don’t hunt Kaladin! He needs time to heal, and discover he is more than just a soldier.
Also me: If you don’t hunt Kaladin, how is he ever going to swear his fourth ideal?
Also, did Venli just say she was going to capture a human radiant to teach her? I’m no expert in Willshaper ideals, but I think she’s doing it wrong.
The chapter title “Voice” is Venli’s title, but we also get endless descriptions of how voices sound in this chapter. It’s almost as if Brandon Sanderson thinks hard about his writing or something.
The fannahn-im are “those ones of alteration” and also “altered ones.” Interesting. Are they the Fused version of Soulcasters?
Was Melishi bonded to the Sibling? I don’t remember seeing that, but of course I might not.
Let’s put it this way: I’m surprised Brandon didn’t find a way to call them struldbrugs.
So, taking real-world England as our model … would you cast out the descendants of the Normans, destroy their architecture, and give the land to the descendants of Angles, Saxons, and Jutes? And then kick them out in favor of the descendants of Celts, destroying all their monuments? And then exile the descendants of Celts in favor of the descendants of Picts? (It’s even more complicated. I’m ignoring the Danes, for one.)
I consider it a mistake to equate people with their ancestors, pick a specific time in history as “the right one” and devalue every earlier and later period.
14 chapters and still no Jasnah? Or have I missed something? I know she is supposed to be Alethkar’s monarch but Alethkar is kinda occupied right now..
I wonder if Brandon Sanderson wants to make her mysterious and thats why she has less screen time.
Everything is nearly setup. Dalinar and Jasnah will be away, Kaladin and Navani will be in the tower. This will force Kaladin to say the 4th ideal and Navani to bond the Sibling.
Maybe it’s because I got Willshaper on the quiz, but I can connect with Venli, at least on a surface personality. Eshonai’s search for freedom was exploration, Venli’s is just a different kind. Sometimes you need a friend to remind you how dangerous ambition can be. Besides, we’re seeing her journey from the very beginning. Nobody would like Dalinar if we had gotten Mr. Alcoholic McGenocide before two books of being nice and honorable.
Well, there’s a setup for Venli turning against the Fused at the tower in there.
The Sibling is essentially a deadeye eh? Hmm…
And this chapter has me sick with worry, gj Branderson.
Remember how Kaladin can’t stand imprisonment? And Raboniel purposefully frightened Leshwi by saying the humans would find a way to trap her in a gemstone. Could common surges cause common fears, or are those with common fears likely to be chosen by the same spren/have the same surge? Hmmmmm…
> Also, that would imply that Melishi betrayed his Ideals, wouldn’t it?
I see where the assumptive leap was made here, though as @1 pointed out, The Sibling is said to be “essentially” a deadeye – and what I’ve often found in stories when a character says that someone is essentially defeated/insignificant/dead, that also means that they very possibly are over-simplifying in hopes that they don’t have to worry about that opponent… and often turn out to be dreadfully wrong. So there’s no clear indication that the Sibling is in its current state from a betrayal of oaths (which would I think make the spren actually a deadeye). Also, we have no surety that Melishi was bonded to the Sibling any more so than the Stormfather or Nightwatcher…
|| We will need to lure the Elsecaller and the Bondsmith away. Their oaths may be advanced enough to push through the suppression
Makes sense that they fear these two, with Jasnah being our one pretty much confirmed 4th Ideal Radiant, and Dalinar having his unique and powerful Bondsmith powers, though interesting to note that he’s on the 3rd Ideal still and yet as worrisome to the Fused as Jasnah (if not more so).
|| Extinction is the natural escalation of this war. If you forget why you are fighting, then victory itself becomes the goal.
Here I again gotta give respect to Leshwi. She’s clearly shown now to not only be honorable in battle, but actually thinking of the ordinary Singers as much as she can and doesn’t want an extinction of the humans.
|| “I’m not afraid of a Windrunner, no matter how… mythical his reputation may be growing,” Raboniel said. “We will focus our attention on the Bondsmith and the Elsecaller. They are more dangerous than any simple soldier.”
Ok. With Kaladin “grounded” at Urithiru, and now an assault planned, did anyone else get “Kevin from Home Alone” vibes?? I so see Kaladin being forgotten about while Taravangian works to get Jasnah and Dalinar away, and he’s just there doing his thing when the Fused arrive expecting an empty house and, surprise! he gets all up in their way (probably Lift helps).
I’m not sure where Alice got her 0.06% mortality statistic worldwide. The only sources that I see quoting that percentage are estimates from a study back in March. The publicly available numbers that I can find say that there have been about 35.5 million infections worldwide and 1.04 million deaths. That’s 2.9% or about 48 times more than 0.06%.
Seems like citing a source would have at least been a good idea when discussing something like this.
https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/map.html
On the topic of Melishi, I think we can be pretty sure that he was not bonded to the Sibling. We know that that generation of Radiants only had one Bondsmith and that the Sibling was withdrawing/had withdrawn, so they likely weren’t bonded at the time. Makes you wonder how they were hurt though.
@7 NineFingers – (and anyone else who’s mentioned expecting/hoping for certain POVs in these preview chapters)…
Remember that we’re given for each Part a list of POVs we’ll see in that section…
We’re explicitly told for Part One: Kaladin * Shallan * Navani * Venli * Lirin
Unfortunately (or not, I assume Brandon knows what he’s writing and the fitting POVs for each part), that means we won’t be getting Jasnah, Dalinar, Adolin, etc. before the book is released. All the more reason to look forward to November 17!
marethyu316 @13 – you’re making the (very common) mistake of comparing infection mortality rate to population mortality rate. The statistics you quoted are for deaths of those infected, but the numbers Leshwi gave are deaths in the total population. So you have to divide worldwide deaths (which I got from the latest Worldometer data) by the total population of the world, if you want to compare apples to apples.
So this is just a thought: would the Heralds have descended into madness like the Fused if they hadn’t broken the Oathpact? Hmmm
bridge4kufer @15 – We still have a chance to observe other characters in part one, but we definitely won’t get their POVs. (Just clarifying a bit.)
ETA: Can you believe it’s only 6 weeks away?
I actually liked Moash I this chapter. His response I’m sure you know what you are doing struck me as incredibly sarcastic.
Something to keep in mind: the Pursuer has apparently not been killed by anyone else in the process of killing his “last killer”, since that tradition has been maintained. That means that he is still extremely skilled and not just throwing himself against his killer until a screw-up.
New ship: the Kal-Wi?…Lesh-Din?… ship. I now want Kal and Leshwi flying dancing in the sky as King and Queen over a land of harmony where Singers and humans live in peace, breeding more Horneaters and Herdazians (the best races in this world)
This was an interesting chapter!
I am really enjoying Venli as a character. I like the fact she has ambitions, is not afraid to voice it out, and does not view it as a negative thing even if it caused her to make mistakes. Ambition tends to be given a bad press, most of the time, whereas it can be a valuable tool to reach your goals, to persevere. I liked the fact we have one character who isn’t set on being “honorable” nor is claiming to be “morally better than other people”. I find it refreshing to read.
So we now know how Venli gets entangled with Navani and Kaladin. I am glad the story is shaping up as one of the critics I had for OB is the book m was goal-less and plot-less for far too long. I am glad RoW seems to have a better-constructed plot: Shallan/Adolin are going to Shadesmar (and that won’t go down well, now won’t it?), Dalinar/Jasnah will be lured to go away, , Navani/Kaladin will hold Urithiru and will succeed. My predictions are one doomed mission (Shallan/Adolin), one useless one (Dalinar/Jasnah), and one successful one (Navani/Kaladin).
I don’t know what to make of the Sibling being essentially a dead-eyed. I am really not keen to witness Navani step unto Adolin’s story arc, so I will hope there is more to it and one big twist tossed in here.
As to the Sibling being essentially a dead-eye: I bet the Singers/Fused would have considered the Stormfather essentially a dead-eye until Dalinar came along. He was just flying around Roshar, dropping rain and stormlight around with nary a connection to the living creatures. Even the Stormfather himself commented on how he sees things differently now that he’s bonded! I am still holding out hope that Adolin is able to save Maya, even if he might not be able to form a proper bond with her (but maybe!??!!). I feel like his connection there is what will allow Navani to save the Sibling – and hopefully get it a better name, who wants to be known only in terms of other ‘people’?
I think it has to be Jasnah who has sworn the 4th ideal, but I completely understand their fear of Dalinar. The storming man can make portable perpendicularities! Of course he warrants a high degree of caution from his enemies.
I have to admit, while I love getting the Singer/Fused perspective, I just can’t be excited about Venli chapters. I think Alice and Lindsey nailed it with her; she’s an interesting character, but just so unlikable. She actually reminds me a bit of Cersei in a Song of Ice and Fire; she’s a bad person, and horribly misguided – especially about herself, but it’s wildly useful to see things through the eyes of the ‘adversary’. Unlike Cersei, we haven’t gotten any karmic comeuppance, or had the perspective to know where she is horribly (and frequently hilariously) wrong. I do hope I can come around on her as a character, but so far it’s been annoying me how deflated I feel when I see that we’re getting a Venli chapter. It doesn’t help that Kaladin and Shallan are in mind-blowingly awesome character/plot arcs right now, and Navani has always been one of my most favored characters (even more so getting into her mind).
@18 Wetlander – Yeah I didn’t think my clarification went that far, but thanks for clarifying my clarification for those who might have misunderstood!
And yes! can’t believe it’s so close already! These chapters consistently getting released each week have made it feel like the release arrival is moving much quicker with a milestone point being crossed every week.
When I read the “maybe one of the fourth ideal” my immediate thought was shallan… idk what other people think of that, they seem to think it was Jasnah but I’m really feeling the shallan esp with how they are unsure… also if Jasnah was 4th ideal would she not have summoned plate during the OB battle? ig if she swore it in the time skip…
One small point:
Per this Word of Brandon, it should be Shallan at least (though possibly others too):
Well yes, all dead spren become deadeyes and Sibling is also a deadeye. Like all dead spren he could be revived even if the Radiants currently think this is impossible. I bet Navani will revive him by the end of the book, but probably won’t bond him.
15, I don’t like chosen POVs. Endless Kaladin and Shallan again and again and again. Venli is like a breath if fresh air.And lack of Dalinar POVs is not good at all. The best character and one of the reasons why this series is so awesome. I like new characters (Venli) but I think Oathbinger’s opening was much better.
I am sorry to hear Alice isn’t warming up to Venli.
I find her fascinating. My interpretation of Venli’s character is she started as a gambler. She has ambitions both for herself and her people, hence she allowed herself to be invited to the bigger gambling table. She hoped she could win the big game she helped to get kick-started. Unfortunately, the stakes proved to be higher than expected and the gains considerably smaller. There is no way out of the game, so Venli looks at her hand and tries to evaluate what her options still are. She still yearns for the big win she could no longer secure but thinks she might get away with a smaller prize, both for herself and her people.
She is still ambitious, but she does not want this ambition to be for herself alone, she also wants it for her own people. She wants them to build their own cities, their own art, and yeah, she sees herself as their queen, but how is this different than Dalinar deciding he would be the King of Urithiru and the Radiants? Because she accepts her selfishness and her ambition for what they are?
I personally love the fact she isn’t broken with a mental illness or a tragic past. I enjoy the fact she might have merely wanted more for herself, more for her people, but failed to evaluate what the wager would be. Part of her journey will certainly be accepting her ambitions do not have to be selfish: she can build a new world for her people, she can help build them back without needing to be “noble” or entirely “selfless”. She can learn there is some nobility and selflessness in wanting her people to thrive even if it also benefits her. At least, she isn’t afraid to name it.
I find it so refreshing to read a character who isn’t driven by “being noble”, “being morally right”, “being honorable”, “obeying rules”, but who’s driven by the “what’s out there for me and how can I get it?”.
Ambition has build nations. It might be part of what the Willshapers were about. Ambitions. You have to have some of it if you are to build anything worth building.
Team Adolin revives Maya first: But I think there is a twist here. I think the book does not end well for him: he has doomed written all over him… I am not sold on Navani saving the Sibling, so I think there will be another twist here. The ambition element of Venli’s narrative makes me suspicious of Navani more as a Willshaper than another Bondsmith.
4th Level: Shallan is a fourth level Radiant. The Fused would know this, but they would know she can’t really use her fourth oath powers.
So the Sibling is only mostly a Deadeye?
I’m really loving all the history and… for want of a better word, demonology. All the Fused know each other, have fought together, are ancient. And we’re seeing them pick up old disputes and politics, with everyone else struggling to catch up. But yeah, I definitely like that they all have their own legends and history.
And I was wondering how we would develop Kal and Leshwi’s relationship (Nemesis is a type of relationship) when he was grounded and recovering. Now we know! The Pursuer is going to hunt Kaladin anyway, Leshwi will leap at the excuse to defend him, and between Kal and Venli we’ll lay the groundwork for a defection.
What is it they say? Life breaks us all, and then we fill the cracks with something stronger. Imagine if a Fused became Radiant.
Something I find interesting is that the Singers are developing their weapons and technology themselves. Odium is providing strategy, but he isn’t (for example) handing over the blueprints for a nuclear bomb. I’m not sure what this means, but it does mean something.
I have to say, I LOVE Singer architecture. That is my kind of city! Now, as for knocking down and replacing the human monuments… I’m ambivalent. This is just what happens over time. And it’s a mistake to try to preserve everything exactly as it was forever. On the other, it’s definitely a cultural loss. Which is the point. It’s the symbolism part of the war. Still, I hope the new architecture survives.
I’m reacting to Venli very differently than the reviewers. To me, while she’s certainly ambitious and a traitor she was also on the receiving end of a genocide. I can see exactly why she hates humans, and why her goal for freedom is to create an independent homeland.
I… definitely sympathize with the Fused here. Of course they want this war over, more than anyone, but they also won’t give up. And I definitely recognize the fear of humans gaining knowledge. Being imprisoned in isolation forever is a very real risk. Which, by the way, of course they ruled out the option to imprison them conventionally. But to avoid that they’ll need peace. And we can’t have peace while Odium reigns.
Also regarding the Fused. There are powers that can heal a damaged soul. What would happen if we used those powers on them? Healing your enemy is a counter-intuitive way to win, which is one reason I suspect it.
Relatedly, hemalurgic beings like Kandra. We’ve always had becoming Radiant described as the spren filling the cracks in the soul. Does becoming Radiant make one of them immune to mental domination?
@22, Gepeto:
COSMERE SPOILER JOKE WARNING:
But Ambition is dead!
@25, Philip:
Jasnah did use her Plate in the Battle of Thaylen City. Renarin sees her dismiss it–that’s the geometric shapes he sees fading away around her. I said the same thing as you, and was corrected, in the OB reread.
Ok so… save Taln, we see parallels about the fused loosing their minds and the heralds loosing their minds. Up to now it read as if the fused was multiple dying and coming back that ruined them, but with the heralds we assumed it was about torture or the oathpact… now i’m starting to believe they both loose their minds for the same main reason, thoughts anyone?
Maybe I misread this chapter (and missed Lyndsey and Alice discussing it), but it didn’t seem like Leshwi was expecting to see Raboniel in this chapter, and we have yet to meet whatever newly awakened Fused she was worried about at the beginning of the chapter. Just something to keep in mind about more villains potentially forthcoming.
I find it odd that we’re assuming Navani Kholin is being entirely honest and forthcoming throughout … given Dalinar’s suspicions about Taravangian, why wouldn’t we assume that she/they would be smart enough to sow some disinformation?
Most intriguing. So, I guess this:
“Six thousand years, and he’s never failed. …”
Gives us the timeline of the conflict. I assume that the 4.5 millennia hiatus since Aharietam is not included, because it was no great feat to “not fail” then. So, 10.5 thousand years all told and the 9 Heralds deserted after 6K years of suffering. Also, it sounds like something extra was done by them to offload the Oathpact on Taln and possibly to make him unable to give in. Maybe that something was vulnerable to “the greater power of the Oaths” once Honor was dead. I have long suspected that there is some method to Nale’s and Ishar’s madness. Speaking of whom – any mentions of the former and the Skybreakers are curiously absent.
This chapter also explains how Venli, Kaladin and Navani can all be part of the same PoV-group, with the latter 2 remaining in Urithiru. Also, it seems likely that Taravangian will kick the bucket in this book and that the Sibling will be revived, probably by Navani. IMHO the Fused will be in for a surprise even if they temporarily succed in negating Radiant powers, because of the fabrial weapons in the hands of simple soldiers. And, of course, there is still Nighblood that will be unaffected by whatever they do. I really hope that we won’t get yet _another_ “Kaladin speaks the Oath at the last minute and saves the day!” resolution. That is to say, he is surely going to swear his 4th and do his bit, but I hope that there is more to it.
Oh, and it looks like Dalinar and Jasnah are in “PoV group 3” and will be lured away.
Fused captured in gems – I am surprised that this didn’t occur long ago. Is this what happened to Jezrien? Huh, and what was happening in Dalinar’s Purelake vision in this case? The soldiers and Radiants were pursuing a spren and a Thunderclast Fused soul – to do what?
There is a deep irony that the “mad scientist” of the Listeners Venli is now assigned to serve and spy on the mad scientist of the Fused. IYes, I think that Timbre wouldn’t have picked her if she hadn’t been terribly vulnerable as a newly transitioned and “orphaned” Radiant spren in acute danger from the Fused. As it is, Venli’s strong connection to Eshonai was barely enough to overcome less than perfect compatibility. Just as Hoid had to pick a Cryptic already attracted and pulled into PR by Ehlokar.
I also have to reluctantly agree that Leshwi seems to be well, not one of the good ones, but she has positive potential. BTW, she _did_ send Kaladin after Lezian, knowing both the Pursuer’s shtick and that he had the anti-Radiant device. So, while she genuinely likes Kaladin, I don’t see how this wasn’t a set-up? And while Lezian is a blowhard, Kaladin did retain the stormlight that was already inside him and it did enhance his performance. So, the fabrial didn’t work completely.
Do Alteration Fused have Transformation or Cohesion?
Awesome chapter. Fused/Roshar lore is utterly fascinating to me. I do have a few questions though:
1) If Lezian was the first Fused to be killed by a human, and we know how is he is now, assuming that his core personality is still the same, how do we know that he didn’t deserve it? That maybe he sort of sparked the whole war?
2) I take Avendla is probably just the location of the human’s second advance after Shinovar?
3) Do we think that the Fused got a lot of their information from torturing the Heralds? Like how would they even know the power levels of Ideals?
4) Both the Stormfather and the Nightwatcher are tied more directly to their Shards. It only makes sense the Sibling – who doesn’t seem to be tied to Odium – would be more “fragile.” We don’t really know what happens when a Bondsmith (or any Radiant really betrays their oaths). Maybe they do go into slumber. Melishi lobotomizing an entire people had to have some sort of consequence. The way the Stormfather talked about it is similar to how he though Kaladin was betraying Syl back in WoR.
@@@@@ 6 Carl,
I think your comparison is incorrect. That would apply to the Alethi conquering other lands, but this is more of a case like colonials and Native Americans. The more apt comparison, in my opinion, would be places like Saratoga, NY or Punxsutawney, PA or really any “Indian Territories” in the early 1800s before the Trail of Tears.
@@@@@ 12 bridge4kufer,
lol. I had the same thought.
@31
But Venli says, “I will see what I can do”
So it is revealed that Fused were able to return in the past too but it’s not clear what limitation was on them back then. In current times they have to wait on the next everstorm. What mechanism did they use to return in the past?
If Venli is going to Urithuru then she will probably run into Rlain. Having to save a defecting Venli might be the catalyst for Rlain swearing the 3rd Ideal of the windrunners. I think Thude and the other listener deserters might be hiding out somewhere, those listeners could run into Venli and this could be a catalyst for Venli dealing with her actions,
Side note: I think that Lezian could use a corupted version of the Willshaper’s transportation surge. I am also thearizing that the willshapers will have acsess to physical transportation/teleprtation, mirroring the Elscallers spiritual teleportation to Shadesmar.
More theories from past chapters: Could the secret fabrial person assume that Navani is lead the development of half shards? We know from OB that these use radiant spren. the imprisonment of these higher spren could defiantly be seen as a terrible thing to do. Also Taravagian mentioned that these radiant spren bind things and give them substance, could these be honor spren? That could be why honor spren have stopped crossing over, they have realized that humans are imprisoning them and no longer wish to help them. Any thoughts about any of these theories?
@36: I see your point in the fused getting information on the Radiants from the Heralds. But wouldn’t this work the other way around as well? The Heralds should be able to tell everything about the Fused to the Radiants, now that they are in contact. Why is it then that Kaladin was surprised by the Pursuer? Shouldn’t he already have this information?
wheeeeee! I think of this book as the Singer/Parsh/Fused(etc.) Book, and boy are Venli chapters delivering. They are packed with so much great insight and information.
Great chapter! I’ve been greatly looking forward to Venli chapters and flashbacks in Rhythm of War, I’ve always had a soft spot for her character. Not entirely sure why, objectively she’s unlikeable, but I just think it’s so refreshing that we get a character, especially a female character, who’s openly and unashamedly ambitious.
I also think Eshonai was similar to Venli before – she was capricious, unreliable, and self-centred too. We know this from Eshonai’s POVs and especially her mother, who mistakes her for her sister at times. From that we can infer Venli was the responsible sister who was “where she was needed” while Eshonai ran off on her adventures.
I think Eshonai changed, or was forced to change, after her roles in: finding the humans, Gavilar’s assassination, and the following war. She had a lot of things that were, largely, her “fault” and changed and grew from them as a result. Venli still has that growing/arc to come.
I also think we should remember that Venli has been manipulated by Odium throughout this. Obviously she bears some responsibility for what her research etc brought her people, but I also think it’s difficult to immediately assume full personal responsibility for something that, as far as she knows, has literally killed….Everyone she’s ever known or loved. They call her the Last Listener, there’s got to be a smidgen of self-preservation in her not shouldering the blame for all of that.
She’s also clearly struggling to acknowledge she’s been used/manipulated by Odium. Venli strikes me as a very proud individual. She hates the thought of being a thing, of being “collected”, of being reduced to a possession. It’s probably hard for her to reconcile perhaps her greatest failing- that she was used as a tool to destroy everything she worked for in Odium.
I also don’t think her ambitions are inherently evil. She wants power. She wants agency. She wants to be Queen/to be in charge/recognised for what she’s done. I think that’s natural for a character like Venli. It’s easy to forget that most of the characters are born into a position of privilege- the Kholins are literally Alethkar’s royal family. Shallan is Lighteyed and just married into that.
Kaladin is our only centric viewpoint Radiant who is Darkeyed (and he was a fairly highly ranked Darkeyes at that). He rejects Lighteyes and privilege/power and responsibility which is a valid reaction to his status.
Venli’s reaction is the other side of that coin. Her people have been oppressed and mistreated by the others for centuries. The other singers are enslaved, and the Alethi viewed her people as savages/uncultured. The desire to build a society, with herself at its head, to have some of the power that’s been denied her all this time is a valid response I feel.
And finally Timbre is literally helping her repress Odium. Venli has a form of power, and is open to Odium’s influence and power. Eshonai was completely changed and her true self was smothered and repressed by Stormform. Venli fought against that influence even before Timbre entered her gemheart and suppressed the Voidspren there.
Oh dear, that came out a lot more argumentative/contrary than I intended I apologise! I do think Venli is a fascinating character, however, and I think she’s still near the start of her arc unlike say Dalinar, and I’m just interested in who she is and where she’s going to go from here. Totally understand the dislike for her but I’m so excited to see more.
PS: anyone else shipping Leswhi and Venli?? Just a bit? At all??? Okay okay I’ll see myself out :D
@Angel, not just the Heralds and Fused, Honor lost his mind. Then there is what is going on with all the Radiant’s, each has their own mental issues, or is broken in some way, and all seem to get worse over time… What is the connection there. I feel like there’s something there that I just cant put together yet, but it has to be all related. Is there something about the world, the magic, Is there some breakdown between the cognitive and physical that effects the magic users? Is it just an attack by another Unmade? I need more tinfoil for more hats.
I feel bad for those who wanted Eshoni over Venli. Its so much better this way, Venli is at the start of her arc, Eshoni had hers off screen, there was nowhere left for the character to go. I can see Venli becoming a fan favorite character later in the series:)
@@@@@36, Keyblazing:
Because the Fused didn’t exist until after the war started? Odium created the Fused, and the singers didn’t go over to Odium until the humans started the war by expanding from Shinovar.
How is that different from the Germanic peoples driving the Celts from their lands and forcing them into servitude, other than being more recent? Wales is effectively the “reservation” for the Celtic remnants, a people who once occupied all of the island of Great Britain. (The Celts of Scotland are descended from later, Irish settlers–the word “scot” originally meant “Irish brigand.”)
@@@@@40, Madhu:
We got a complaint in this very book about how hard it is to get information from the two Heralds in Urithuru, because they are mad. (I can see the singer/Fused army breaking into Urithuru, the Radiants being suppressed and nearly helpless … and Taln and Ash save everyone. I don’t think that’s where the story is going, but it could have if that were Brandon’s direction.)
What if Maya is the sibling? This would prove the point that the sibling is essentially a deadeye because she is being revived slowly.
Just a theory but it could be fun
@ marethyu316 The death rate isn’t simply number of death divided by number of those who tested positive. For every person that has tested positive, there are generally considered to be 10 to 100 times the reported that never got tested because they were asymptomatic.
If you had it early on, and you didn’t fall into a category that was at high risk, they would not test you. I know this for a fact as I tried to get tested multiple times, and likely had it, as I had all the major symptoms. Thus I am one that will not show up on the your calculations.
Not to mention there are many countries where people likely don’t have the means to get tested (money, etc.) and thus are only looked at as a statistic after they die.
@Greg Hearn, I think the reason Tavanast lost his mind was because he held a shard for so long with nothing to balance it out. He eventually became so obsesed with oaths that he lost all of the emotion and reason behind them.
@@@@@ 44 Carl,
Yes, but if he was killed and brought back as a Fused so that he could kill his killer, it was quick enough that it was in the same lifetime. If it’s the first confrontation then it starts the war potentially. The Singers had to have gone or be amenable to Odium at the same time or he wouldn’t have been able to bring them back that fast.
And yeah, that’s true. I forget about Envoyform.
I don’t know enough about European history, so I’ll take your word for it. My argument was more about a completely foreign invasion in that the English and French were a whole continent away.
I’m taking “the Sibling is essentially a deadeye” as further evidence for my developing suspicion that the Stormfather was *not* bonded during the Recreance.
As far as Venli’s character, I’m reminded of Dalinar throughout Words of Radiance and Oathbringer – he had that basic “unite them” command in the back of his mind, but the only method he could come up with was some variation on “I’ll bang their heads together until they listen to me”. That … sort of worked on a few of the Alethi highprinces, I guess, and otherwise completely failed to accomplish his goals. He repeatedly has to remind himself that “bang heads together” is a dumb plan that at best produces fearful submission to the current proximate threat, rather than genuine unity. Likewise Venli needs reminders that Odium was a lying liar who lied about what would come from Stormform and that being Branded by him is probably not something to be desired. (I also stand by my theory that being branded involves having a voidspren of some sort basically mashed into your soul, and probably kills your original body in the process – no evidence for or against it here, but I thought it might be worth reiterating.)
Jasnah is clearly the 4th Ideal Radiant that the Fused are concerned about, but it’s less clear to me that she has Plate-as-such. Do we have WoB that not all orders have Plate, just like not all orders have squires? I thought we did, in which case I’d say Jasnah has whatever Elsecallers get that’s their equivalent to Plate, but might not be Plate as we are used to thinking about it. Otherwise I can’t see why she would dismiss it when Shallan shows up – it seems more like it’s some sort of ability that has to be used in bursts or charges, rather than a sustained power like regular Shardplate. Or maybe she’s just so used to hiding her powers that she instinctively tries to hide her Plate from everyone, Shallan included. Tough to say.
Lastly, just to get into the discussion around the bioweapon that the Lady of Pains used: I looked up some statistics from World War I, since that war famously had profound demographic impacts on the powers that fought in it. The only nations with death statistics (all numbers in terms of total population, not just the militarized portion) in the vicinity of 1 in 10 were Romania (9%), Serbia (16.1%), and the Ottoman Empire (13.7%). I’m not sure about Romania, but I’m pretty sure the Serbian and Ottoman numbers there include some genocide and/or attempted genocide in addition to more straightforward war deaths, collateral or otherwise. Meanwhile we have nations like France and Germany with 4.3% and 3.8% death figures respectively; both nations were massively scarred by WWI, to the point that it had very noticeable and obvious effects on how they behaved leading up to and during WWII. A few other nations had death figures in the 3-3.5% range: Greece, Italy, Austria-Hungary, and Bulgaria. I don’t know a lot about them. Britain and Russia are both right around 2% losses, and all the other participants are less than that. In any case, my point is that the bioweapon’s effects are probably more comparable to an all-encompassing total war like the World Wars at the start of the 20th century, the wars of the Three Kingdoms that precipitated and then followed the collapse of the Han dynasty in China, the American Civil War, or the like.
I hadn’t been overly excited by Venli, and still not entirely sold on her as a character.
That being said, this chapter was delicious!
I still do not like Venli… I didn’t like her back in WoR, and even less in OB when we learned she had been in contact with the Voidspren and had manipulated the other Listeners.
However, seeing some of the behind the scenes with the Listeners and the Fused was extremely interesting!
I cannot help but think that for beings that are somewhere in the neighborhood of 6k-10k years old, and have been killed numerous times, there is little in the way of loyalty to each other or to any actual cause, and that it is essentially lip service to the grand design since they all seem to have their own agendas.
I did also find is extremely fascinating to see them underestimate the humans as much as they are, will make the resulting clash even better to me.
I have to admit, this new turn of events makes it difficult to interpret BS’s posted outline diagram. We already know Shallan travelling to Shadesmar is a major thread of this novel, and it now seems that the assault on Urithiru will be, as well, and, possibly even the main point of the RoW.
However it plays out, I am even more anxiously awaiting the release!
Initial Observations
This was another great chapter. It was logical to assume that Venli’s POVs would give us insight into the life of the Singers and the Fused, but there’s a lot of worldbuilding and history introduced in ways that don’t seem to expositiony and don’t take you out of the story. And there is the potential for significant plot development/progression in her POVs, too.
Leshwi – A fairly honorable Fused, as I initially thought. She still has her issues (I agree with Venli that the Fused are not interested in setting up the Singers to rule themselves), but she was clearly NOT working with Lezian to entrap Kaladin. She is even acting to protect Kaladin from “the Pursuer’s” obsessive hit list. Leshwi also cares about how the war between the Signers and Humans is fought, and I applaud that she isn’t easily going along with Raboniel’s plans.
Raboniel had come up with biological warfare, and had released some type of pathogen on humans/signers during the last Desolation!?!? First (and foremost): What the F*@@@@@#!!! And also, I wonder what some of the mutations and side effects of that action were? Did this lead to some of our mixed races? Changes in some of Roshar’s fauna or other aspects of the ecology? Also, Raboniel is clearly psychopathic and any activity she undertakes will not likely end well for anyone but herself.
I’m curious to see how the strike of Urithuru unfolds. What will happen with the Sibling? Will the Fused actions ultimately backfire and lead to the Sibling’s reawakening instead? Also, the Sibling is a Deadeye, not just “sleeping”? Interesting. I don’t know if the Sibling was turned into a Shardblade or not, but if it were, my crazy theory would be that it’s Sunraiser (Elhokar’s Blade, that was left in Kholinar after F***ing Moash killed him).
I really liked this chapter. Brandon is killing it so far with this book. I can’t wait until we can read the whole thing.
@42:
I’m still trying to figure out how any relationship with the Parsh will work. As I understand it, they are completely asexual when not in mateform. Though, I suppose they could form romantic attachments. I guess we need more info on how their asexuality compares to real life. As I understand it, there’s a wide spectrum of asexuality. I’ve read that some asexual people even have and enjoy sex; they just don’t ever desire it. Then there’s people on the spectrum that don’t even desire romantic attachments (aromantic).
I forgot a side note, seeing Kholinar being “changed” by the Fused really bummed me. It isn’t I don’t want the Parshendis to eventually build their own cities, I am just not comfortable at reading them destroying once beautiful Khooinar. That just feels wrong. It made me uncomfortable.
@47 Jackson – While Tanavast did become abnormally focused on Oaths due to being Honor’s Vessel for so long, I don’t think that would cause him to lose his mind as much as lose his humanity. *All Shards have been held for millennia and their Vessels don’t go mad… just become more the Shard’s Intent than what they were before they Ascended.
I’d say that the fact that Honor weakened himself in whatever he did to bind Odium to the Rosharan System, and then Odium slowly killing and Splintering him was the cause of the madness.. [Mistborn Era 1] The same way Preservation was losing his mind after he put his power in the mists and Ruin was killing him.
*[Mistborn Era 1] Yes, Sazed/Harmony is the exception.
@52 Austin. I don’t think we know enough about the forms to comment on sexual desires etc. According to Eshonai some people want to be in/remain in mate form. Others are in it but control it – Eshonai could do this, and so could Abronai.
Mate form also seems to be a form for reproduction/producing children, but the parshendi still obviously form partnerships/bonds. They’re referred to as “once-mates” in the case of those who have entered mateform together, like Venli and Demid, but Warpairs seem to be made up of romantic partner teams, typically one malen and one femalen.
Just because they aren’t ready to jump each other every 5 minutes doesn’t mean they can’t form committed relationships/partnerships.
I get that the whole conflict for the ENTIRE series centers around the moral quandary that the humans are the “original aggressors” when they originally conquered Roshar…
But I dont understand why this is such a moral quandary.
1)The war crimes committed by the Fused and singers have been WAY worse since that time (intentionally releasing a biological weapon to wipe out all humans and singers, murdering your own people to provide bodies, CONTINUING THE AGRESSION for thousands of years, the resulting millions (maybe even billions) of deaths, etc)
2)ALL humans who originally conquered Roshar are dead (except maybe a few cognitive shadows that we haven’t met yet). Meaning that all the humans currently alive are blameless for the original aggression.
It’s like beating up your worst enemy’s grandchild because your worst enemy beat you up (no matter how old the grandchild is, they still had nothing to do with it). It’s like the Greeks and the ancient Sandanavians coming back to life and takeing revenge on the European Union for the Roman Conquest.
Not that the humans are blameless. They enslaved the parshmen after all. But by the time these books are being written, the people had no idea the parshmen had minds. It’s like being a farmer that rases cows, and one day the cows start talking to you, telling you they’ve always been sentient. Is the farmer wrong to have treated them like animals when they had no idea they weren’t? Sure the oringinal farmer who took their minds away were in the wrong, but we’re talking about the farmer’s great great… granchildren.
We see this problem distinctly in today’s reading and in Venli’s last chapter, when the Fused are talking about how best to exterminate humankind.
And I think Venli has the right idea. After all, we know Singers and humans can get along (at least if they stay separated). While nothing has been reveiled by Brandon, you have to ask yourself, “What happened between Desolations?”. They coudn’t have constantly been in conflict or “a Desolation” would not have ended when the Fused returned to Brase.
So can someone explain this to me? Why is this problem such a moral quandry?
@53 Gepeto – I read the descriptions that the Kholinar palace is actually more beautiful and naturally inclined with the flow of Rosharan flora than it was when built by humans, so I don’t find it to be disappointing at all! Yes, the humans being subjugated is bad, and the Alethi losing what was once there pretty capital; but its the Singers’ land now, and they should live in it as is comfortable for them!
Especially considering that the area of Kholinar was the Singers’ land first and they probably had their own beautiful architecture that was destroyed by the humans when they took over the area. If anything, it was their right to return the city to being their own.
I feel it is pretty obvious that the surge that the Pursuer uses is Transportation. I just don’t have any idea how any other surge would possibly work that way, since he was literally teleporting. Just because the old body is left behind doesn’t mean that it is some other surge, just that it is applied differently to the Ones with Husks than to those who use Oathgates.
I also think that it is clear from this chapter that the surge the Fused lack is probably Transformation, since they refer to the Nine being Soulcast in place without any reference to a specific group of Fused doing the soulcasting. It is odd that they soulcast them in place instead of using cohesion to form the stone around their bodies as the appear to be doing with the palace, but maybe soulcasting is better suited to that detailed work. It is still possible that it is a different surge that they don’t have access to, but my money is still on Transformation.
@55:
Yep. Which is why we need more information about their asexuality. Asexual is just an umbrella term that covers a wide spectrum of sexual/romantic attractions. Leshwi and Venli would make sense (and I would totally ship them!) but the interspecies ship of Kaladin and Leshwi makes less sense to me.
I would like to make a comment about a theory I’ve had since we discovered that humans came with Odium from another planet. What if the souls of the fused are not from ancient singers but from humans that came with Odium?
I’ve been struggling to understand why would the singers side with the God that brought humans to Roshar. And why wouldn’t Honor help the singers?
So my theory is that those ancient humans discovered a way to live forever by trasspasing their soul into the gemheart of the singers. That would mean nobody changed sides but some humans that were not okay with this method of immortality.
The reason I’ve decided to talk about this now is the name the Nine used for Alethkar. “Land of the second advance”. Why would the inhabitants of Roshar reffer to a land by a name that implies it was invaded? Shouldn’t they be using a name that existed before the humans landed on Roshar?
This little bit of information is what makes me think that I might be on the right track with my theory.
Of course, it has flaws as well. For example, if the Fused were ancient humans why do they take the form of Singers, even keeping certain marks through different bodies? Or why are they able to hear the rhythms?
I don’t know if someone has already stated this theory and I think it would be a bit “boring” to get yet another plot twist regarding the Voidbringers, but all in all, as I said, I believe I might be going in the right direction.
What are your thoughts on this? I’m willing to read your opinions and counterarguments.
The Fused are just removing the “modern” human buildings and rebuilding the original architecture. It’s like restoring a Roman temple or Medieval church by removing later additions. Or the Aztecs coming back and tearing down Mexico City to rebuild Tenochtitlan.
THEORY – If the Sibling is ‘essentially’ a deadeye but we think its possible for him to be revived (like Adolin/Maya) what if Navani’s whole arc is becoming the second Bondsmith and reviving the Sibling/restoring the Urithuru?
Which leads to my theory about who is communicating with Navani about ‘trapping spren’. Maybe Melishi trapping Ba-Ado Mishram broke the Sibling…and now it’s sleeping but still able to communicate to some degree…or waking up
I’m pretty sure that the Sibling isn’t any Shardblade. The Tower is their version of a Blade, I’d say.
@59: that was kind of my point though? That we don’t need to know more about the specific asexuality of the singers to ship them? With anyone, really. We know they form romantic/seemingly monogamous bonds with one another that extend outwith mateform.
I will admit I’m not a huge fan of Kal/Leswhi. Largely because I get irked by simply smashing together any male-coded/female-coded characters because they, like, looked at each other one time. But we’ll see. I get the sense we could be building to that…
Storms, that spoiler guard didn’t work like it was supposed to. Mods, if you see it perhaps you could remove the comment? Unless you don’t think it’s a big deal. Thanks!
@Mickifricki I have been toying with the idea Gavlar is not gone for good, I was thinking something along those lines, Venli has a comment this chapter about making new fused even, He had dark spheres on him when he died. Odium and his champion with nine shadows with the familiar eyes, I think that’s Gavlar reborn in a parsh body twisted by the unmade. I also think that it makes little sense that the fused would not be humans, but the rhythms thing does complicate that, unless its the body they are stealing that gives them the ability and they have been doing it so long its become part of them. Next book is Gavlars prologue?
This maybe a bit off topic but is it just assumption that the Sibling is related to Odium as the Stormfather is related to Honour?
It occurred to me that maybe the Sibling is so called because it is sibling to the Stormfather and (presumably) the Nightwatcher while the latter two or not siblings to each other. In the same way that in WoT Galad is sibling to two major characters that are not siblings to each other. If the Stormfather is the child of Honour and the Nightwatcher is the child of Cultivation maybe the Sibling is the child of both Honour and Cultivation. Similar to how the two Shards on Scadrial resulted in three magic systems. It seems more plausible to me than there being a radiant bondspren related to Odium.
Though I also wonder if the Nightwatcher may be a relatively new being created since the previous desolation therefore not the second bondspren. The impression I got from Dalinar’s meeting with the Nightwatcher and Cultivation was that maybe the NW was young, naive and being taught to grow through interaction. She/it would still be considered ‘old magic’ by the standards of modern humans despite not being as old as the desolations.
Just two random thoughts I had.
Typo!
“and use my knowledge turn the defenses”
“and use my knowledge to turn the defenses”
Apologies if it was already mentioned
An essay on madness:
Okay, so not an essay, but thoughts. Why are the Fused and the Heralds mad? Or getting there, to some degree or other?
Sure, the Heralds have been tortured constantly. But the Fused? Why are they mad?
Mistborn Secret History: We learn that Kelsier wants to go back. Fuzz tells him it isn’t possible. But we later find out, that it is! Sazed/Harmony creates new bodies for Vin and Elend. But they turn him down. Vin says, “I don’t think it works that way.” Sazed was still too new at the god thing to understand. So what’s going on here? Why did Fuzz refuse? What didn’t Harmony understand at the time?
There is something deeply wrong with being reborn over and over again. Dying and being reborn has consequences that damage a soul or a cognitive shadow. That is why the Fuzed have gone, or are going, mad. That is what has happened to the Heralds. The rebirth process just isn’t natural, and is damaging. It is a corruption.
In the case of the Heralds, why would Honor agree to something so corrupting? He didn’t! The Heralds weren’t supposed to be reborn! They were supposed to be a lock on Braize forever. What wasn’t foreseen was that the Fused would figure out the could torture the Heralds and get them to break their oaths. That breaking of the oath is damaging as well, and repeatedly doing it corrupts the soul. The rebirth of the Heralds wasn’t supposed to happen.
(More Mistborn: SH) This is what Harmony didn’t understand when he wanted to send Vin and Elend back. One rebirth may have not been a big deal, but it is still corrupting the natural cycle of things. Multiple rebirths? Not good. Not good at all.
That’s my take on what is going on behind the scenes here.
@45, Greg:
We know that Maya is a Cultivationspren. She looks like one (her skin is made of vines in the Cognitive Realm) and Brandon has confirmed it.
@49, Gazeboist:
As extensively shown in last week’s comments, readers don’t trust Shallan. Why would Jasnah?
In any case, concealing her abilities makes lots of sense in general. Jasnah has many enemies, from Odium to the Sadeas family.
Notes about Reboniel’s biowarfare. COSMERE SPOILERS based on WoBs.
1)Remember that Ashyn’s magic system is based on diseases. Having a specific disease gives you powers, and being cured removes the power.
2)Remember that three Worldhoppers have infected the Purelake-dwellers with a terrible plague: the common cold, which Rosharans are especially vulnerable to.
I would really like to see the attack on Urithuru just fizzle, after all the buildup: “Singers, advance down this corridor, then divide at the next hallway junction–“
SKUNCH!
“What was that?”
“That was some sort of fabrial rolling dozens of huge boulders over the entire legion. Half the singers and 3/4 of our Fused are dead.”
Although I am not too fond of Venli I agree with the choice of forwarding her story instead of Eshonai. She could not have done the things Venli is doing, her best path would have looked like a Listener version of Kaladin.
I like Leshwi way more than I thought I would. The Pursuer is a jerk.
Does anyone remember the WoB that essentially said the afterlife process on Roshar is screwed up? That may account for all the long-lived beings there gradually slipping into madness. The Heralds, the senior Fused, Tanavast, Rayse. Cultivation seems like the only really stable one but who really knows? We’ve only met her once.
I kinda got the impression that our newest old mad scientist is planning a bit of turnabout. From what I read, she seems to be hinting about a way to lobotomize humans like the singers were. Which is just as terrifying as unleashing a global pandemic. Miss Ro-Ro is bad business.
I hate Moash but homie sounds like a Cassandra right about now. Strangely he has more faith in Kaladin than Kaladin himself has. Does he still have some type of hero worship for his former commander? And if so I can see him trying to take Kaladin off the board and that plea back in Ch. 8 was recruiting and not suicide baiting. Ymmv.
Keep in mind that the Fused and Heralds are Cognitive Shadows (ghosts). Maybe the descent into madness is simply a degradation of the Investiture that is the makeup of their being. I don’t think it’s the same as an organic brain slipping into madness.
44. Carl:
We got a complaint in this very book about how hard it is to get information from the two Heralds in Urithuru, because they are mad. (I can see the singer/Fused army breaking into Urithuru, the Radiants being suppressed and nearly helpless … and Taln and Ash save everyone. I don’t think that’s where the story is going, but it could have if that were Brandon’s direction.)
What I fail to understand is why they are mad. They were sane enough to break the Oathpact and since then haven’t faced any torture in Damnation except for one. What would drive them mad? From what I read in OB, I thought they were leading pretty non-descript life since Desolation. Also, the Fused are driven mad as well, but they haven’t forgotten anything. On the contrary, they have become more vengeful. Is it something to do with Odium’s influence?
@@@@@ 56 micky
It’s because the humans essentially took everything away from the ancient listeners – land, religion and sentience. You also have to differentiate between them and the parsh. While I understand that it was a long time ago, the parsh were still paying the price until recently. How do you apologize to someone who’s been enslaved? You can’t just say “oh, well.” For as much as we know now, the humans are to blame for the conflict starting, even if the Fused are clearly evil (now). We as the readers know this, so for us, it shouldn’t be black and white.
Fused:
Imagine if you decided to rent out part of your house. That someone then decided that they want to live in your part of the house. Then they throw you out / restrict your space to a tiny part of that house. You decide that’s not fair and you fight. You end up losing and get kicked out. You come back and over and over again you lose. You go to more extreme measure and your children get sucked into your bitterness and vengeance. They continue to fight (maybe on your behalf, maybe not) and you get the opportunity to continue your crusade. You – essentially – keep losing and losing, getting angrier and crazier.
Parsh:
You are a lobotomized slave and you know it. Your children and children’s children are slaves for millennia, for something that neither you or they did. They sell you and your family without a single thought. You have no culture, no history, no self. And then you learn that the only reason that this has happened to you is because humans stole your land, your birthright as the “only” native sentient race on Roshar, and your sense of self. Why wouldn’t you be mad at them?
Leshwi thinks that when they win the Fused will just go away? The Nine have literally made themselves a permanent part of governance, they aren’t going anywhere.
This Chapter really reinforces for me that the whole story as we know it is wrong ie, Honor being the original god, Odium being brought with the humans, the desertion of the oaths……
IT never really fit….
Now with Venli being the first Radiant among the Singers… and Odium being able to meld with them so effortlessly, like they’ve been doing this a long long time.. and now the nine fuzed, literally being fused in stone…
Just a lot of questions to be answered.
Perhaps this is just my personal biases coming out (I tend to care more about the quality of the story arc than the morality of the characters involved, and redemption arcs in particular either completely fall flat for me or make me fall in love with the character, even if they’ve only barely started their growth like Venli has here), but I’m definitely one of those people that loves Venli. She’s probably not in my top 3 (I think that’s Shallan, Jasnah, and Szeth, in descending order), but she might be top 5 now. For similar reasons, I kinda want to see Moash/Vyre become a recurring villain, making cameos in other books once Stormlight is finished, trying to coax characters to his master’s side (be that master Odium, another shard following Odium’s death, since I doubt the first cosmeric scale villain would be the main cosmeric scale villain, or something else entirely)
As for theories, I don’t have may that pertain specifically this book. I definitely think that the exact phrasing, “essentially a deadeye” is important, that they might be easier (Or harder!) to “revive” than Maya, but besides that not much. All my narrative instincts are telling me that Raboniel will see some small initial success with her corruption of The Sibling before getting ousted by the heroes, some of whom will swear the fourth ideal during the ensuing battle, but I know by now not to expect the obvious answer. All in all, though, very excited, cannot wait for the full book
@74: “What I fail to understand is why they are mad. They were sane enough to break the Oathpact and since then haven’t faced any torture in Damnation except for one. What would drive them mad?”
From Way of Kings (p. 3 in my paperback version) “Kalak looked into the immortal king’s eyes…There, in Jezrien’s eyes, Kalak saw anguish and grief. Perhaps even cowardice. This was a man hanging from a cliff by a thread.”
“Almighty above, Kalak thought. You’re broken too, aren’t you? They all were.”
The madness started a long time ago. It was there at the end of the last desolation.
Again, I believe it is not only a bi-product of being tortured by the Fused, but also from the unnatural rebirth process. Not to mention the PTSD they had to have been suffering from going through so many battles and watching so much death and destruction.
@77: I’ve never believed that the story as we know it is true. In order for the story to hold together, it must contain truth, but things are being twisted about. It isn’t as simple as evil humans destroyed their planet, the Singers took them in, and then the humans betrayed the Singers. I don’t believe for one minute that Odium was the god of the humans of Ayshyn. Something smells about the whole thing.
I’m surprised that no one has brought this up (that I saw; I only skimmed some of the longer comments so may have missed it), but the thing that really struck me about this chapter was the implication that the power-suppressing fabrial wouldn’t work on a Fourth Ideal Radiant. Why is that? We know at least some of the orders get their Plate at the Fourth Ideal; could that be it?
@29 HaloJones
“There’s a big difference between Mostly a Deadeye, and ALL Deadeye. Please open his mouth.
“Now Mostly Deadeye is slightly Aliveye. With ALL Deadeye…well with All deadeye there’s only one thing you can do…
“…go through his clothes and look for loose Investiture.”
It’s pretty clear that the radiant of the 4th ideal is Jasnah. There are deep hints, though, that Shallan previously reached the 4th ideal and then regressed somehow by mentally breaking from reality over painful memories/lies. Part of her clearly knows whatever truth is related to Formless. I’m also re-reading OB right now, and there’s a bit in the scene where she invents Radiant: Adolin asks her whether she has shardplate. She says something like “not that I know of,” and starts feeling very nervous, like there’s a Truth close to surfacing. So I think that she’s not currently capable of summoning her plate, until she acknowledges and holds on to whatever this Truth ideal is. All of that makes me very curious about her and the Lightweaver order generally. It seems that her ideals are about acknowledging to herself that she hid painful truths from herself. Once she has said her ideals, she doesn’t seem to be able to bury those memories anymore, apparently due to the bond and the nature of ideals. If she really forced the memories away, it would probably kill Pattern or at least weaken him like Syl in WoR. But then how did she have enough painful Truths to become a Lightweaver in the first place as a kid? And why didn’t her newly buried Truths about her parents kill Pattern permanently in the period before WoK? And generally for Lightweavers, does this requirement of having Truths to reveal that you’ve hidden even from yourself keep the numbers very small? Or maybe it just makes it very hard to rise to a 4th or 5th ideal? Maybe I’m putting too much emphasis on the idea that Shallan lied to herself, and that aspect is unique to her.
The name “Formless” combined with the idea that Shallan may have been a 4th ideal (at least 3rd, we know) radiant as a small child make me surprisingly willing to entertain the theory people have been discussing the past few weeks that she might not actually be a young woman from Roshar at all. It strikes me as a step too far to have one of the main characters for this series be an alien from another world, with powers described in an entirely different series, like the Kandra. I don’t think it seems like something Sanderson would do to Stormlight Archive, making it completely and fundamentally unable to exist without the wider Cosmere. The main characters and the primary conflict need to all be about the Roshar system and shards, I think. But I’m very interested to hear about what she’s still hiding and I’m skeptical that we’ll hear a small child was capable of earning and then forgetting about 4th ideal radiance and shardplate. It seems likely that we’ll find out she had shardplate, but now suppresses a memory about how she misused it. I just can’t even come up with a remotely reasonable guess for what happened to lead up to that suppressed memory.
Dullform parshmen were able to reproduce. I wonder if we’ll get an explanation of why that is possible outside of Mateform?
It’s unusual compared to the previous books that there hasn’t been a flashback chapter yet for Venli. There were about 3 flashback chapters for Dalinar spread throughout the Tor preview ahead of OB. It looks likely now that we’ll only get that many chapters from Venli’s perspective, and they’ll all be in the current time period. I think this fits with what people are saying about Venli still being at the beginning of her arc. Maybe there isn’t really anything relevant for her to flash back to. Am I the only one who finds the lack of flashbacks sort of jarring in the context of the series? The Venli chapters are sort of giving us flashback-like insight for the whole Singer people, but it doesn’t feel like a Stormlight book to me without those intermingled memories.
This has probably already been discussed, but does anyone else wonder if the Shin are like the human versions of the Listeners – trying to remain neutral in the Desolation wars by staying in the land that was given to humans and not attacking anyone?
If Moash hadn’t said anything about how Kaladin will be there to ruin the Urithiru plan, I would have probably assumed that Kal’s achievement of the 4th ideal would be the key to pushing the invasion force back out. Now it seems too easy, and over-foreshadowed in a way that Sanderson doesn’t do. I now think there will be a combination of Navani becoming a radiant (possibly bondsmith), someone else achieving the 4th ideal, and Kaladin helping without Windrunner powers. (That’s probably around the end of part 2 or part 3. Do we know yet how many parts this one will have?) I think he’s going to need to get to the 4th ideal in this book, but that it won’t be the main key to that battle. He’ll feel good about his support role, then envious when someone else gets to the 4th Windrunner ideal before him. Then I think he’ll hit both the 4th and 5th ideals in quick succession later on. Getting the 4th ideal will be at a time that’s emotionally meaningful to him, but not such an easy solution to a huge plot problem like needing the 4th ideal to avoid having his powers suppressed. Then the 5th ideal sets him up again as unique and unusually powerful, likely involving defeating or fixing Moash and/or protecting someone who seemed 100% doomed. I suspect there will be some sort of interplay between Kaladin achieving the 5th ideal and getting Jezrien’s honorblade from Moash so that he ends up uniquely powerful from some synergy. The 5th ideal (and maybe even the 4th) may wait until book 5, with the unique synergy setting him up to replace someone as Dalinar’s designated Champion of Honor.
My guess. The Alteration Fused use the Odium type of surgebinding equivalent to Cohesion.
I want to learn more about the Nine. That is weird. To communicate with them although the Nine are entombed. Why are they entombed? Do they have a higher place than other Fused?
“She was both the very crust of the unimportant and the very dregs of the important.” This is a wonderful simile.
I hope Chapter 14 puts to bed (pun intended) of a Leshwi / Kaladin relationship. Leshwi does not respect Kaladin in the one one would respect a partner. She sees the Winderunners and Honorspren as servants. She wants to subdue and subjugate Windrunners and Honospren. Leshwi would not have this attitude towards Kaladin if she were truly interested in having a romantic relationship (or even a friendship) with Kaladin; not unless she was inhibited by the spirit of Lanfear from WoT. Despite what Venli thinks, I disagree with her. When she thinks that Leshwi wants to protect the Windrunners, I think she is being an unreliable narrator. To the extent there is any “protection” it is of a predator not gorging itself and allowing some prey to escape so the prey can always reproduce so the pack has enough food during upcoming seasons.
The invasion of Urithiru by Raboinel and her forces appears to be one of the central plots for RoW. I think that two things will happen. First, Navani will somehow reactivate the Heart at Urithiru. This may well involve someone (not necessarily Navani bonding the Sibling). I do not believe the Sibling is a deadeye. I think (and I have no textual support; just my hunch) that the Sibling’s state is not the same as other deadeye spren. IMO, Stormfather speaks differently of the Sibling’s condition than he does of the deadeyes. He considers them all dead. Yet, Stormfather does not consider the Sibling dead; just sleeping. I see this as a big difference. Of course, the Stormfather is also an unreliable narrator at time. But I think having the Sibling be a deadeye in the same way that other spren are sought to be a deadeye. Second, this attack will be what causes Kaladin to finally say the 4th Ideal and be a major reason why Team Honor defeats the planned invasion.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
I would like to see Kaladin reach his fourth ideal in an unexpected and quiet fashion. Perhaps related to reconciliation with his father. We know, like with Lopen, that it won’t always be dramatic.
Alice. I agree with you. I think the concept of the Five was based on the Nine. Nine, the “holy” number of Odium. Nine members of this council and nine classes of Fused. I know it is not “class”; I cannot remember what word the Fused, Regals and Singers refer to the different types of Fused. For KR, it is Orders.
Alice and Lyndsey. Why do you say that Alteration equates with Transformation? I thought is more akin to Cohesion. Bending a structure’s molecules so it can be re-shaped into a different form. Transformation would be changing water into stone; grain into food, etc. I saw what they did as take the original material and reshape it. As one would do with clay.
I think the Singers called Alethkar the Land of Second Advance because they originally started out in the land that is now the Shattered Plains. As a race, they followed the course of the Highstorm. The Highstorm travels east to west across the continent. Likewise, I think Singers migrated from east to west across Roshar. The last place they came across was Shinovar. It was so different than what their bodies had been accustomed to.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
@83: Parshmen were not Dullform. They were something else, referred to as No Form. Rlain and other spies could immitate Parshmen because Dullform is similar. But it’s not the same. So while No Form Parshmen could reproduce, I don’t know that any Singer/Listener form can do so as well. RAFO?
Re: The Nine vs. The Five – I’m pretty sure it’s mentioned that the Five was a smaller number previously. They added a member each time they re-discovered a form. IIRC, Eshonai expresses a thought that they would have to add a new member if the transformation she was to undertake was successful (I believe this was prior to her taking stormform, but maybe it was after?) So it most likely is modeled after The Nine, with a representative from each group.
@81: I did catch that! I intended to mention it but got distracted by other things.
Re: Windblades – After the last Venli chapter, I had the thought that the Windblades used to be residences for the Heavenly Ones. I still lean that direction, but they could have served a different purpose. I think it is becoming increasingly clear that the Singers inhabited Kholinar previous to the Humans. It may have even been their capital? And it has been mentioned that the Humans don’t know what the Windblades were for, or how they got there. It seems that the Fused/Ancient Singers knew how to build towering structures that could withstand the winds.
@87 – It was called slaveform.
Mateform is not the only form that can reproduce. It’s just a specialization. See Brandon’s WoB:
Some thing i have been wondering about, if the parsh/singers have void hearts that the spren can enter to form a bond, how is that accomplished with humans? is it some form of telepathic connection, does the spren take over part of the hosts brain/heart? do the radiants have little crystals forming inside them somewhere
So we have more mention of the horror a spren would feel in a fabrial ( or soulcaster?) if it was a more sentient or sapient spren, not sure if this applies to the lesser spren. I’m really feeling Sja-Anat as the one complaining to Navoni. I wonder if she will part of what takes place when Urithiru is attacked and she will need to make a choice.
Is the Sibling inside the giant fabrial that could run Urithiru? But that would might mean spren didn’t need to be trapped but maybe just asked to run a fabrial.
I like Venli as a character but she definately wouldn’t be my choice as a friend. Do we know why Odium dismissed her?
Isilel @35. I had the same thought. We have not heard anything from either side about the Skybreakers. I wonder if they did not do exactly as Nale thought they would at the end of OB. Instead of picking a side, perhaps they have chosen to stay neutral. I think staying neutral is a cope-out. I would have some respect if they chose to side with the Singers. I disagree with their logic. However, they at least made a choice. Choosing not to chose a side, IMO, is even worse. It also does not strike me as something a Skybreaker would do. Once they have the facts, then their code seems to indicate a Skybreaker must decide. I believe that Nale thinks he has all the facts. (FWIIW, I believe Nale, himself, does not have all the facts. He is missing crucial information that could make most of the Skybreakers choose Honor’s side, if they already chose to serve Odium. Moreover, I think that issue (the complete truth) will be a big focus of Book 5.
Isilel @35. I think Lezian is overestimating his fighting prowess and underestimating the humans fighting prowess. He has forgotten that they have had 4,500 years to harness their martial skills. I believe that Szeth is a better warrior than Kaladin. I think if the two had to fight without the use of Stormlight or any other magic, I would bet on Szeth. He as trained with more fighting styles than Kaladin. I would find it hysterical if Szeth defeated Lezian so that he lost to a second human. Nevertheless, I would not be surprised that Szeth accompanied Dalianr and Jasnah on their mission; or at least goes with Dalinor. Nothing guarantees that Dalinar and Jasnah are going to leave Urithiru on the same mission.
Query. Does the suppressor device work on Lift as her source of Investiture is consumption of food rather than Stormlight? Lift’s use of her powers would also be a surprise. Likewise, does Team Odium know that Renarin is bonded to one of Sja-anat’s creatures? Could the difference in the manifestation of Renarin’s abilities also not be affected by the suppressor device? If so, Team Odium could face another challenge.
John @38. Perhaps Ba-Ado-Mishram had something to do with allowing the Fused to Return after they had been killed but before the Isolation began.
Micky @56. I agree with you that what the Fused are currently doing is far worse than what the humans did in the distant past. I am not a fan of relying on pain and torture of one’s ancestors to punish the descendants of the victims’ perpetrators. This is what the Fused are doing. They are trying to exterminate the living humans because these humans’ ancestors did horrible things to the ancestors of the singers. Worse, the Fused are doing (at least IMO) worse things to the singers than the humans did. The humans of old took an action that caused the minds of the singers (and future descendants) to be labotomized and enslave the population. At least these humans did not de facto kill the singer by imposing their own souls into the body of the singer and destroying the current soul in the process.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
I never trusted the idea that Sja-anat had switched sides, and now I’m even more strongly of that opinion. Raboniel’s goal is to secure the heart of the Sibling and “corrupt” it using “Odium’s gifts”. We already know that Sja-anat’s ability is to corrupt spren and the ancient Radiants considered her extremely dangerous, and she’s trying to get more corrupted spren bonded to people within Urithiru. I think those things are connected.
On another note, it’s always great to see outside perspectives on Kaladin. He’s an amazing person when seen from the perspective of anyone besides himself.
@83, Idabomb333:
As mentioned upthread, don’t forget that Szeth is there and has Nightblood. There is no possible way that fabrial is suppressing Nightblood. Hey, if Vyre goes along, we can see Nightblood hack Jezrien’s Honorblade into fragments.
Isn’t the only confirmed Radiant who has sworn the 4th ideal Nale? He said as much in Oathbringer, if I remember correctly. Herald and full Radiant with his dual blades, one a spren making him a full SkyBreaker, the other the original honor blade?
There seems to be an error in the chapter right here where it says rabonial is speaking but then Leslshwe is the one that is reprimanded for speaking which is weird and incorrect.
@95 No, it’s not an error. The nine are agreeing with the Lady of Pain and telling Leshwi to shut up and get over it.
@94 Nale is not at the tower so he wouldn’t be counted as a problem
@88: I knew I was getting that wrong.
However, and I’m not trying to be argumentative here, but I think the term Slave form came later to name what was done. The form the Parshmen were stuck in was really not a form. Or at least, one that was not known to them previously. I think it of it as a state where they were stuck between forms. And, until the everstorm, the Parshmen were not able to get out of that form into one of the “known” ones. Was that just because they didn’t know how? Or did the Everstorm change things, removing the block that was placed upon them?
And thanks for the clarification on whether they can mate in other forms. It makes sense that they could. But would they want to? At least from Eshonai’s POV, they would not. And it seems the Parshmen in Slave form only mated when “forced” to do so by their Human masters.
@81 I think it is related to shard plate. When Dalinar went back to the vision of the Midnight Essence as the Radiant, the windrunner couldn’t lash him with his plate summoned.
Concerning radiants with 4th ideal, I think Shallan has a lot of work to do emotionally to get there…. what memory is worse than her earlier ones, I’m thinking something to do with Shadesmar, maybe killing a younger sibling on accident, the memory will be brought back when she visits uncle Restares…
There are redeemable aspects to Vinli, she grew on me a little when she realized her pride wiped out her people, that remorse can change people, so it is a little concerning that pieces of that personality resurface multiple times in this chapter, very good to have timbre as a check, I guess thata why the bonds are powerful… same thing helps in real life with a good partner.
I really wonder why the Nine(and the rest of the Fused) seem to consider attacking Urithiru to be such a great risk. Even if the entire strike force dies, that wouldn’t be a huge deal unless a counterattack happens before the next Everstorm. Actually, the Fused could just attack Urithiru a day or so before a storm, making it even less risky. Exposing their spy would be bad, I guess, but they don’t seem super concerned about that.
After a Ctrl-F, I couldn’t find Szeth mentioned so I figured I should pipe in. He is a known radiant that has sworn the 4th ideal (Crusade, against the Shin Leaders). Not exactly sure how that matches up with his funky bond, so we might not see any plate from him, but he is the most likely person the fuses are referring to.
I think that they will successfully infiltrate the tower, but Kaladin and Venli will stop them before anything bad happens, perhaps swearing an oath or two along the way.
@101 Did he actually swear that oath? I’m pretty sure he decided that that would be his quest, but, last we saw, he was just swearing his third ideal to follow Dalinar. Also, doesn’t the Skybreaker have to complete their quest to become a 4th ideal radiant?
I think we’ve seen Leshwi being as honor obsessed as Kalladin through enough viewpoints to trust it at this point. She does seem skilled at hiding her true intentions, so she could be faking really well, but I think we can give her the benefit of the doubt.
I always love it in books when two people/groups that we’ve been following separately start interacting. In WoR, we got to see Kalladin and Shallan meet up with everyone else, in Oathbringer, Szeth, and, to an extent, Rysn join the main group. I’m really excited to see Venli and Leshwi start to interact more with the Humans. I think Sanderson’s really good at mixing his characters together in satisfying ways and I look forward to the day it all comes together large scale and we start to see the planets, and shards, collide a bit more.
El Cochino @@@@@ 87:
Here’s the actual quote.
It reads to me like there were always Five, and that nimbleform was the fifth form discovered (after warform and workform; at one point in Eshonai’s PoV it’s mentioned that there was a time when dullform and mateform were all they knew), giving them five total known forms.
El Cochino @@@@@98: You’re correct: In WoR, Eshonai’s PoV explicitly states that slaveform is more properly described as a lack of form; dullform hear the Rhythms faintly, but slaveform cannot hear them at all.
Skye @@@@@101: Actually, we don’t know if Szeth has finished his Fourth Ideal yet; he swore the Third at the end of Oathbringer, and he told Nale he intended to cleanse Shinovar as his Fourth Ideal quest, but (unless it’s been revealed in the RoW excepts so far and I don’t remember), we don’t know that he’s finished it to the satisfaction of his highspren yet.
(EDIT: Ninja’d by Slink1701 @@@@@103, but I will add that Nale explicitly states that you have to finish the quest to become a Fourth Ideal Skybreaker.)
And I agree with John @@@@@97 (for a different reason): Nale is not who they are referring to; he is, after all, on their side.
I’m pretty certain it’s Jasnah they’re referring to, although I do like the idea that Shallan may have been a Fourth Ideal and regressed.
Greg Hearn @67 That’s a really cool idea I hadn’t thought about. Turning Gavilar into one of the nemesis of the saga given that his death started all the events that occurred in the recent years would be some amazing twist, at least, i would find it awesome.
It is true that Gavilar was toying with the idea to travel between planets, maybe that travel was in the form of a cognitive shadow like the Fused are.
As i said i believe we are in the right track here, and I like the idea of turning this conflict into a war between humans.
I don’t think Shallan has regressed out of her 4th Truth. She still remembers that she killed her mother. What I believe is happening is that she’s not getting all the benefits out of her 4th Truth because she doesn’t want to. Radiant could probably summon Plate right now if Shallan could get her act together. Her fragmentation limits her abilities to a certain extent even if it lets her function. Maybe Dalinar could help her if she went to him and could manage not to joke and deflect for more than 5 minutes. My 2 cents.
Jasnah is probably the 4th Ideal Radiant the Fused have identified. I don’t think they know about Shallan since she hasn’t directly participated in the war effort as far as they know.
I am getting a feeling that with all the highlighting of Kaladdin’s taking the blame on himself for death of others and the Windrunner ideals essentially about being protection of others, the Final Ideal will be about letting go of the ones you couldn’t protect and focusing on the ones still alive
It was revealed in earlier books that dullform was taken so they could escape Odium.
Is it possible that Listeners’ ancestors betrayed their own? I find it interesting to think that they used dullform and conveniently the ones that didn’t were made into slaveform. Did they know what was going to happen? Were they given warning? Maybe by humans, or perhaps Cultivation?
I don’t think Shallan is 4th Ideal. She seems to have been having to go back through the regular stages for a Radiant: acknowledging she killed her mother, at the end of TWOK, led to her bond with Pattern opening up again (Second Ideal; Dalinar also bonded the Stormfather at the Second Ideal) and acknowledging at the climax of WOR that she killed her mother enabled her to begin using Pattern as a Shardblade regularly again (Third Ideal).
I don’t think either she or Kaladin passed a new Ideal in OB or in the subsequent year.
Also, I hope that Kaladin’s 4th Ideal won’t be something as simple as “I will accept that I can’t save everyone”. It can’t be about accepting other people’s choices and letting them choose to risk themselves, because he’s already going that with Rock.
I want one of his remaining ideals to be about resolving the conflict he (and Lirin, and Syl) have always had about killing to protect, and especially his recognition that the Singers are decent people deserving of protection as well (and his thoughts in TWOK about how soldiers have to divide the world into “us” and “them”). Something about protecting without killing. Or resolving conflicts. The second Windrunner attribute is “Leading”, and what with Jezrien being Herald of Kings, I think that’s about more than just leading men into battle.
Theories:
1. What if Eshonai is now a Fused and will be returning? What if even more broadly every Parsh can just become a Fused?
2. Joining the gamble above that Navani’s arc will be to awake and bond the sibling.
The Fused seem to equate “has been seen in Shardplate = 4th level”. Since Shallan has never manifested Shardplate they probably would be uncertain of her level. Another way to take what they say is “we only have one confirmed report of a 4th Ideal Radiant in Urithiru”. That’s a long way from saying “we are absolutely certain that there’s only one 4th Ideal Radiant in Urithiru”.
We know that Shallan was at the 3rd Ideal for much of WoR because she could summon a Shardblade. At the end of WoR she went up to 4th Ideal. There’s no indication that she regressed to 3rd during OB – that would have hurt Pattern and her powers, neither of which happened. Shallan did regress in her childhood after killing her mother I believe but that’s almost impossible for Lightweavers:
Questioner
Kaladin kind of went back on his Oaths in the second book, right?
Brandon Sanderson
Yes. He started down that path.
Questioner
How could Shallan or Lightweavers go back on the Truths they make? And did Shallan do any of that in Oathbringer?
Brandon Sanderson
No, the Cryptics– remember, how the spren is viewing this is very important. The Cryptics have an interesting relationship with truth. Harder to break your Oaths in that direction with a Cryptic. Harder to move forward, also, if you’re not facing some of these things and interacting with them in the right way. But, while I can conceive a world that it could happen, it’d be really hard to for a Lightweaver to do some of the stuff. Particularly the ones close to Honor, you’re gonna end up with more trouble along those lines, let’s say.
Questioner
So then, what happened with the Lightweavers during the Recreance? Did they break their Oaths?
Brandon Sanderson
They did break their Oaths. I mean, breaking your Oaths as in “walking away from the first Oath” will still do it, regardless of what Order you are. You can actively say, “I am breaking my Oaths and walking away.” Anyone has that option. But you also are holding the life of a spren in your hand.
The Great American Read: Other Worlds with Brandon Sanderson (Oct. 25, 2018)
@111, Shachar:
Odium says in Oathbringer that it is his power that lets the Fused return, and that he can take it back. One suspects he will not give away too much of his own power like that. He isn’t exactly generous–generosity is Endowment’s job, after all.
It’s interesting how many people want Navani to become a Bondsmith. I’m completely on the other side. Everyone should not be, or want to be, a demigod. This is not self-insert fanfic! As I posted upthread, my ideal way to defeat the attack on Urithuru would be to have the Radiants distracted or suppressed, and regular people handily defeat the Odium forces with cleverness and determination.
And:
I think it’s pretty clear they think Jasnah or Dalinar might be the 4th Ideal Radiant.
Maybe I missed something but I assumed that once Szeth went to work for Dalinar, that all of Taravangian’s plots would be useless and he’d be cast out of the tower. How is he still walking around?
@115 Ndepicansaints
From Szeth they know Taravangian is a bad dude, and who wants to take over. Unfortunately that doesn’t make him very different from other connivers they’ll have to work with. In that sense it’s probably better to keep him where they can see him. What they DON’T know is that he’s changed sides entirely and is working with Odium, because WHY WOULD YOU DO THAT? I don’t think they know that the Diagram is him either.
anyone else hoping that the attack on the tower is a success? raise the stakes, put the “good guys on the run” with no safe haven, and a great excuse for a epic book 5 where they take the tower back at great loss.
Maybe they don’t know about anyone being at the 4th ideal….
Lezrian is simply arrogant and stating that the device must have failed because their is no way kaladin who is not a 4th ideal could have bested him, and thus he must be of the 4th….
Im not gonna lie, I dont harbor the hatred most people do against Moash. Yes he did a lot of bad things and I am not claiming he is a good person, but I just dont hate him that much. He just seems more… Pathetic than evil.
The Skybreakers were mentioned in a Kaladin chapter.
Nale is the only Herald who has joined his own order. He has sworn the fifth oath.
At what age do parsh fist bond a spren? They are probably born without a bond. That would make slaveform a new name for childform.
@120 – Slaveform is just a name. What’s important is that the parsh had their Connection severed. Not sure what form parsh children come out with, but it’s not slaveform.
I am so confused by your take on Venli. Guess I’m one of the few that likes her? I just kept scratching my head at your opinion of her, wondering if we’ve been reading the same story.
@120 – I had to double check to see if Brandon has ever addressed the children topic before and it looks like he just did recently! There truly is a WoB for everything:
I can’t see if anyone else has posited this but I think Maya IS the Sibling… Maya looks like a deadeye but she helped out Adolin in a not-a-true-deadeye way which supports the ‘essentially’ a deadeye comment… So, maybe?
I think Shallan was telling the truth that the Shallan persona is the falsest of them all. Remember when Hoid was startled when he met Shallan for the first time. He saw the real being beneath the personas and it at least startled him. Hm.. I wonder if a fused somehow possessed the young Shallan but wasn’t able to push Shallan out like it could with a Singer.?.
“The current coronavirus death rate for total world population appears to be about 0.06% so far.”
Just a quick correction. There are a little over 7.5 billion people on the planet right now. Coronavirus has killed a little over 1 million. This is about 0.013% of the world population.
This correction brought to you by my pedantry.
Not much to say about the actual chapter, Venli POV chapters are not my favorite. I am liking Leshwi more and more though, she seems like she can be reasoned with and perhaps eventually turn against Odium.
@26 et al
We have a WOB that the first proper use of plate we will see will be done in POV. He wants the readers to experience it as the characters do.
That said, Jasnah and Kaladin have both had mentions in OB (Kaladin in the storm while rescuing people in the village and while aboard the Reacher’s ship – he was close, but not there). Jasnah very much did have plate during the Battle of Thaylenah (the geometric shapes around her), but the WOB show that he didn’t want to give anymore detail before the POV.
bad_platypus @104:
I stand corrected on the five. It was bothering me a bit, and I wanted to look it up, just haven’t had time. Thanks for the clarification.
Wolfbeckett @125 – You’re correct. We were crunching too many numbers and changing things around, and I plugged in the wrong number for the words. US death rate is 0.06% by population. World is 0.013%. My apologies.
It does give an interesting context to the 1% and 10% death rates for the singers and the humans, though, doesn’t it?
So, a reddit WoB reveals that I was wrong about the duration of Heraldic Epochs:
It only took 1.5 thousands of years before Aharietam. This is a more cramped, event-wise than I expected, given that the surge-binders could have only appeared shortly before the 3rd Desolation at the earliest and according to a previous WoB there were :
While Taln is completely awesome, I really hope that there is more to the big break after the Last Desolation than him being just so much more resilient than his colleagues. What the Fused said here suggested that there was more to passing the burden of the Oathpact onto him alone than the others just abandoning their honorblades and refusing to return to Braize.
Given that the 2 Heralds in the Prelude to WoK seem quite rational, if broken, I think that there was also more to Jezrien’s belief that Taln might be able to hold out indefinitely than just the Herald of War being _that_ indomitable. Anybody can be broken, as the Heralds would know better than most. So, IMHO Ishar and Battar/Pailiah/Nale(?) have done something that they thought would make it impossible for Taln to ever give in and set things up so that he was the only one to die at Aharietam. Jezrien knew about it, but Kalak and most of the others probably didn’t. Ishar and Nale later feared that without Honor’s checks on the Radiant powers, they could disrupt whatever it was, which is why IMHO the 2 of them were instrumental in the Recreance under cover identities. But in the end it was Gavilar’s intereference with Braize that caused the things to collapse.
I also begin to wonder if Iriali had been there for the Heraldic Epochs, or if they only arrived later, since there would have been a lot of empty land after the Last Desolation. It would appear very odd for them to come from whatever world they escaped from just to settle on the apocalyptically war-torn Roshar and stay there. It always seemed weird to me as well that the map of the Silver Kingdoms leaves no room for the singer-controlled territory – could it be a late, immediately pre-Recreance map instead of how things looked before the desertion of the Heralds?
I always thought that Melishi was bonded to the Sibling and that he didn’t survive the binding of Bo-Ado-Mishram and lobotomy of the parsh, which hurt/”killed” his spren, but the time-line of the gems in the archive is somewhat tricky. I also suspect that Ishar was involved, somehow. Personally, I think that most of the “emerald” recordings predate the others. Given the recent more detailed description of the Truthwatcher Order, they likely developed the gem-recording technique in the first place and may have begun to store important iformation that way before the question of the abandonment of the Tower became imminent. That would also mean that in years/decades between the Radiants leaving Urithiru and the Recreance, they were without any Bondsmith at all.
Gepeto:
Venli has grown on me. I can totally sympathise both with her ambition and with her briefly wishing for immortality. IMHO, most of negative depictions of youthful longevity/immortality in fiction is just sour grapes. Sanderson does it too, somewhat, unless it is a pet character like Hoid. Anyway, I find all the insights into the Fused and glimpses of their pre-existing (dawn)singer culture utterly fascinating and really hope that Venli doesn’t fade into the background after this book. It always made me disappointed/uncomfortable that we were shown so much of what was going on with the singers through human PoVs.
EvilMonkey @72: I do still miss Eshonai and very much disagree with the notion that she had no arc remaining – I wanted to see her deal with, learn to outwit and eventually break the mind-control that she was under and use these experiences to help turn the singers (and even some Fused) against Odium. She couldn’t have wormed herself into the confidence of the Fused like Venli, but then she wouldn’t have needed to, because they would have believed her unable to disobey or betray them. I generally find the themes of mind-control in fiction fascinating, though, and so rarely explored in satisfying depth.
Keyblazing @36:
IMHO, there definitely more to hostilities breaking out for the first time than we learned so far. Honor by his very nature shouldn’t have been able to side with humans if they had been uniquely at fault, while the singers remained faithful to their oaths. There was a tragic misunderstanding and/or premediated betrayal on both sides.
Taryn @55:
Actually, Eshonai thought of her time in mate-form as a “disaster” and only remained in it for a couple of weeks, according to her PoV in WoR. Venli spent a whole year in it, but didn’t become pregnant. Which makes me wonder how the singers even manage to keep up their numbers, when even in the specialized form their fertility is so low. Also, Venli specifically noted in her previous PoV that the listeners didn’t stick with one partner and that concept of life-long monogamous commitment was foreign to them.
ChocolateRob @68:
There is a WoB that the Unmade collectively are Odium’s equivalent of a godspren. Why people think that the Sibling should be his, too never made sense to me. Their very name suggests close ties to both the Stormfather and the Nightwatcher, i.e. equally blended investiture of Honor and Cultivation.
Greg Hearn @117:
Honestly, if our protagonists get kicked out of Urithiru, I would find it incredibly contrived and implausible if they don’t get destroyed completely. I mean, they would lose the remaining free Alethi citizens, the Oathgates, their teams of scientists and scholars, etc. and their strongest ally Jah Keved is secretly in the hands of Odium’s servant, while half the world is already openly in the hands of the Fused (whose number grows every day) and their allies. I know that a scrappy little band of heroes on the run somehow turning the tables on overhelming enemy power is a beloved fantasy trope, but it doesn’t really fit here, IMHO.
Heralds and Radiants being pitted against the Fused led only to Pyhrric victories and complete destruction of civilisations in the past – this time around something must be different. IMHO, for the first time technological superiority would allow the anti-Odium side to stand against the Fused even without the surge-binding powers and protect their infrastructure from anihilation. So, I think that Raboniel will be partially successful and supress the Radiant powers in Urithiru, but the new fabrials will remain functional, which would allow simple soldiers to hold out against the Fused. Not to mention Kaladin, who will surely reach his 4th Ideal, Renarin whose weird bond may not be disrupted, Zahel, Nightblood, etc. Speaking of Zahel, he must be able to draw in stormlight without the spren bond to consume it, so he should remain capable of using Nightblood without dying if he has enough charged gemstones, ditto Lift and her turning food into investiture.
@129 Isilel. While I agree Eshonai still had a story to tell, I find her voice would have probably not been distinctive enough from the other main protagonists to truly be engaging. Eshonai was noble, honorable, selfless, and believed in being morally right. She was a soldier trying to be as honorable as possible. She would have sided with Dalinar the moment she is given the opportunity, she would not question his moral superiority and would have done what is honorable. She wasn’t a bad character, the mind possessed narrative was interesting, but she, unfortunately, evolved in a series where Kaladin and Dalinar are main protagonists. As a result, she would have simply morphed with them and increase the growing tiredness some readers feel over reading the throes of characters wanting to be better, more honorable than others, and having hardships when it isn’t always possible. Now, I agree this is a gross over-simplification, but my point is I don’t think the story needed another character with those personality traits, but it surely needed a Venli.
Kaladin and Dalinar are fine characters, but they have no edge. Young Dalinar had an edge, but no one cares about his past anymore, even the truth about Rathalas was not sufficient to have others stop glorifying him. Kaladin and Dalinar will always do the “right honorable thing” and that’s not always the most interesting path to take for enthralling storytelling. It also makes them predictable which is why I much prefer Sanderson choosing to switch to Venli.
Venli is not honorable nor noble. She does not hide her flaws. She acknowledges them. She knows she screwed up and a part of her wants to make it up for it, but she isn’t going to shed away all her ambition in the process. She may not spontaneously want to follow Dalinar’s lead despite being a Radiant. She may not always take the most honorable course of action which means she can have an edge, an element of unpredictability that actually makes her, at least to my eyes, more interesting than Eshonai would have been.
I agree the glimpses onto the Fused is really interesting. I am surprised at how interesting I am actually finding it. The cost of immortality however is a narrative trope used and re-used in many works of fantasy. Robert Jordan, Leight Barduro, Bryan Staveley, James Islington, Ann Rice all (and I am sure there are countless others) had their take on immortality and what it entails. It usually isn’t positive though I have also read books where immortal beings are not crazy, sane, and trying their best.
I don’t know if Venli will fade into the background or not, but I do not personally expect her to remain a major protagonist after her book. I expect her to remain as a supporting side character within book 5 much like Szeth will be a minor character is most books except his own. I expect the same with Navani.
I also agree with Carl 113 on Navani. I do not want Navani to revive the Sibling and become a Bondsmith. I am hoping another character will take on this mantle. I am ambivalent enough over Navani suddenly becoming a main protagonist, I would hate if his fact made her story are so contrived. She will obviously become a Radiant, I just do not wish for her new bigger, larger role to rime with becoming another God while being married to one.
I have not read the other comments today, so apologies if someone else has posted the same theory.
Rlain will bond the Sibling. It makes so much sense that the Singers get a bondsmith, and that the Sibling will get a new bond that makes up for the last one (who also was a Singer if I remember correctly). I’m guessing Shallan et al will find them in Shadesmar, after reviving Maya, and helping bring them back. Rlain, after bonding the Sibling, joins up with Venli (and possibly Leshwi) to start building up the Singers again, and to fight back against the Fused. We’ll get the beginning of that this book, and the main of it in the next book.
I feel like this also adds up with the theory that Rlain is Eshonai’s once-mate, considering this is her flashback book. So we’ll be told hers/theirs story, and then Venli and Rlain meet up at the end. Yep. This is my theory and I’m sticking to it.
Venli’s former mate was taken over by a Fused. I don’t think she had more than one if she is only fourteen and spent much time in scholarform (is that what it is called?).
@birgit I think you misread me. I saw someone theorise that Rlain is ESHONAI’s former once-mate, not Venli’s.
Re-Reading the rest of the series and noticed this: “She moved on to the pairs of discs on the floor and ceiling that looked something like the top and bottom of a pillar that had been removed—a feature of a number of rooms they’d explored.”
I’m wondering if Dalinar has to open up a perpendicularity here to somehow awaken the Sibling or otherwise infuse urithiru.
This may have been mentioned before, but is it possible for a human to host a fused? I suspect that there is a long game going on here, that perhaps the singers may not have been the sole original denizens of Roshar. In that case, can Leshwi inhabit a human body? For ships sake, of course.
I have another question. It has been said that Dalinar already had the power to heal himself, that he had some of the abilities of a Radiant before he bonded with the Stormfather. Is it possible that he has secretly bonded with the Nightwatcher as well? If a human can bond with more than one spren, is it possible for Dalinar to bond with the Nightwatcher and the Stormfather? And if this is the case, why can’t he bond with the Sibling as well. I know that there is some thought that Rlain would make for a great Bondsmith, but if Dalinar is to eventually ascend, would it not make sense that he incorporates the bonds with the three bondsmith sprens before uniting Cultivation and Honor into a new being? It seems to me that Dalinar is poised to become more than a Bondsmith with great abilities. Perhaps when he was pruned, something else was imparted to him, one that Cultivation has hidden not only from him but from everyone as well. I know the idea of a super hero is anathema to some, but what if…
One aspect of Venli that’s interesting is that she’s not getting bogged down in “glass half empty” type thinking. Us readers probably have quite a negative opinion about the Fused in general (being of Odium and all) but Venli overall has quite a constructive attitude I feel. It doesn’t really feel like her being inherently naive either, though there is some of that and I do expect her opinion to evolve over time. Particularly if (when!) she meets Rlain.
Still, there is one thing that has been bothering me about her POV chapters and I had to think about it for a while to try to figure out what it might be. My first thought was it that it was because she has a somewhat “alien” perspective but I think it’s more that her chapters are somewhat info-dumpy compared to the rest of the book and this gives a slightly stilted feeling. I think this is pretty much unavoidable though – the story only has her to explain her culture and situation and there’s a lot to cover. It’s a minor thing anyway but I thought I’d mention it – has anyone else picked up a similar feeling?
Sure feels like Leshwi is going to die permanently sooner or later. Venli has some protection under her wing while Leshwi lives but I think she’ll re-evaluate her options at some point. Leshwi dying to stop some stupid self-destructive action by the other Fused seems like a good bet.
So, does anyone else see a parallel between The Five, The Nine … and The Three? I don’t think this makes Shallan a tribe of singers, but I do think Brandon used the similar phrasing to connect these currently-distinct storylines in people’s minds on an unconscious level.
Are you going to do a recap of the books released until now like you did before? It would be very useful before November :)
@135 – No. You need to have a gemheart, which humans lack.
ChrisRijk @137 – I’m curious. How do you see Leshwi dying permanently? So far, they’ve spent six thousand years dying and coming back for a new host, and we don’t know of any mechanism for permadeath of a Fused. Theories?
Berns @139 – I believe Paige and Ross are planning to do another “the story so far” post before Rhythm of War comes out. I’m already working on a couple of other fun things, too. The usual assortment of “It’s almost here!!” and “It’s here!!!” articles. :-)
Wetlandernw @141 – we don’t know how it all works but here’s some ideas.
Nightblood could probably do it – eat her soul basically.
If Leshwi does something Odium doesn’t like can he simply refuse to revive her? Similarly, wouldn’t the Fused have some way of disciplining those who misbehave, so they might have some private methods. I’m generally assuming here that Leshwi is a bit too nice/sane compared to the average Fused, so it seems quite likely that she’ll go a bit too far eventually.
We also have one of my least favourite troupes introduced in this chapter – the mad scientist. This person seems set to do all sorts of “never been done before” stuff so who knows how that is going to work out. “Oh no, for my dumb plan to succeed I’m going to have to sacrifice a Fused. Gee, how tragic”. Okay, that’s quite an outlier. But talking of doing things with Urithiru, if we imagine Urithiru being fully reactivated while Fused are inside, could that do something quite nasty to them?
At the end of OB we also saw a supposedly immortal Herald die rather easily. Could the same technique work on Fused?
@142 – Nightblood is kind of a cheat answer lol. Brandon has said even Vessels are a little afraid of him. He said Hoid would stay very, very far away from Nightblood.
Took me a while to get caught up (it’s been a crazy week) but what an interesting chapter.
And yes, I will definitely use this light heartedly for my Kaleshwi ship ;)
A lot of good info (and yet still so many more questions) about the past, the Recreance, the history of Singers/Odium/Desolations, the Sibling and nature of Urithriu, etc.
I actually like Venli a lot – I don’t see her as particularly bad or worse than any other ‘bad guy’ who realizes it’s not all it’s cracked up to be, and I also think her motivations make perfect sense given her own peoples’ history. But maybe part of is that I don’t find the fact that she is ambitious to be a bad thing. I guess I relate more to a character like Venli who is dealing with their own flawed nature and still trying to do the right thing even if it doesn’t always come naturally.
The nature of the Nine kinda reminds me of the people who basically just turn into pillars in the non-canon Aether of Night draft. I wonder if that’s where he got it.
OB. Final battle. Seth used Nightblood a lot. Did he use it on any Fused? Or just the human soldiers that were possessed? If he used it on Fused, shouldn’t we already know if that prevents them from being reborn?
Szeth used Nightblood on a thunderclast, and we know that killed it dead dead, but we don’t know if they know (either the humans or the Fused). As near as I can tell, he didn’t actually use it on any Fused.
Wow that was some infodump. What about show, don’t tell which Brandon always advertises in his classes. I‘m also not a fan of the siege of Urithiru idea.
I liked Venli in the previous chapters, but here it was basicly Venli listnig to an infodump. I liked most of the information we got, but I wish we would have gotten it not all at once.
But most people seemed to love this chapter, so I guess it‘s ok.
@ChrisRijk:
#137:
As opposed to “Shallan gets info dumped all over her by Mraize”? I’m kind of surprised how infodumpy this beginning is, myself. We also got Kaladin infodumping in his interior monologue. (“We only bring Dalinar along because his Perpendicularity is so useful.”)
Thinking about it, that’s why the first few Kaladin chapters annoyed me. It wasn’t primarily the repetitive fighting part. It was that I don’t like extended interior monologues.
#142:
He threatened another Fused with exactly that at the end of Oathbringer.
@145, El Cochino:
Szeth swung Nightblood at the Fused, but he was blocked with the aluminum sheath and to the best of my recollection didn’t actually hit any.
Okay, weird theory. But Shallan could be 1st ideal, Veil 2nd ideal, Radiant 3rd ideal (since she needed radiant to deal with the sword aspect), Formless is 4th ideal, and her 5th ideal will be the truth that she is all of these people together as one person.
False statement:
50-90% of the North American continent was wiped out by overlapping epidemics in the 16th-18th centuries, including in communities who’d never even had contact with the Europeans who brought the diseases. There are plenty of epidemics in recorded history with horrifically high death rates.
It occurs to me that people maybe missed Brandon’s reference there.
In pretech cultures, one in one hundred people dying of disease in a year would be the best year ever. Roshar, for whatever reason, has fewer and less deadly diseases than Earth. Right now, in 2020, something like 1% of people living in tropical/subtropical nations will die of mosquito-borne diseases, with 21st Century medicine available to at least some. (I made up that number, but I’ll bet I’m not far off.)
Brandon being scientifically literate, I wonder if this is because native Rosharan life can’t act as intermediate hosts.
Now that I think about it, the Alethi at least seem to have surgeons but no herbalists. Presumably this is because they have much more of a problem with injury than disease.
@151 Carl
In Wok Kaladin goes to an herbalist to look for anesthetic. Iirc, the herbalist himself says it’s a rare trade and they collude on the knobweed sap prices to protect their profession as a whole. so you may be on the right track
@151 – Don’t forget Kaladin’s training as a surgeon; it seemed like a hybrid of general medicine and surgery. His father quizzed him on symptoms and whatnot.
What major viewpoints do people think we’ll get for the next 5 books after book five? They’re supposed to take place some time later than the first five.
With ten books, I have to think we’ll cover all 10 Radiant orders. And I think they’ll mainly be people who have been set up in the first five books, but have had less prominent roles. My guesses would be:
Renarin (Truthwatcher)
Lift (Edgedancer). I’m virtually 100% sure on this one.
Jasnah (Elsecaller)
Rysn – she’s one of few characters who have had multiple interludes, and I have to think that means she’ll be important later. But her personality doesn’t fit either Stoneward or Dustbringer, which are the two remaining orders.
@154 KatherineMW
I am not sure I understand you correctly. But we already know the flashback viewpoints of the back 5. See here: https://coppermind.net/wiki/The_Stormlight_Archive
@155 – She actually asked major viewpoints, which is different than the flashback characters. Though I do think all 5 will be major viewpoint characters. But Brandon is careful to note that having a flashback doesn’t mean that character survives, ala Eshonai. But my guesses are that Szeth gets a more prominent role in book 5 (Skybreaker) and main viewpoints for each order in books 6-10 will be Lift (Edgedancer), Renarin (Truthwatcher? If he really is one), Jasnah (Elsecaller), Taln (Stoneward), and Ash (Dustbringer).
Re: disease rates, Brandon has stated that due to their natural Investiture (plentiful Stormlight) Rosharans “normally have greater health than elsewhere in the cosmere.” That means disease is not a common vector for high death rates.
@154 + 156 I thought I misunderstood… But interesting thought. I hope that we get some major viewpoints that we don’t know yet. Or at least viewpoints that are only small children know. Say Gavinor.
@155: Thank you! I did not know that!
And Rysn, Rock, and Lopen all get novellas! Excellent!
Major viewpoints and flashback characters might differ.
In other words, having a flashback sequence does not mean a given character will also have a major viewpoint. Examples of this would be Eshonai and Szeth: both have flashback sequences. The former will never have a major viewpoint because she is dead and the later never got what I would refer to as a major viewpoint. Even in his book, it has been mentioned Szeth may not be a major viewpoint. So far in RoW, Venli is the flashback character, but the major focus character seems to be Kaladin.
On the reverse, not having a flashback sequence does not mean a given character cannot have a major viewpoint. Examples of this would be Adolin and Navani. The former will most certainly end up having more page time than Szeth and the later is one of RoW’s major characters despite not being the flashback sequence.
Also, characters can have major viewpoints in only one or two books and take a more minor role in others. An example of this would be Dalinar who has a major role in WoK, OB, and presumably book 5, but a more minor one in WoR and in RoW.
I would personally not expect Shalash nor Taln to ever really have major viewpoints: I think their flashbacks will prove significantly more interesting than their present-day story. I don’t know how major the viewpoints from Jasnah, Renarin, and Lift will end up being but Sanderson said surviving major viewpoints from the first half would still be major characters in the back half.
All this to say, there is no guarantee the current flashback characters will all be major focus characters in the back five. It isn’t even guaranteed this list will not change. It is not guaranteed the major focus characters won’t be one we are currently following or new ones. While I would expect Jasnah to have a Dalinar-like role in the back five, it is hard to currently envision Renarin and Lift as narrative leads, but I guess we’ll see… in a really long time.
@152, Ulim:
You are completely right about herbalists. I realized I was wrong shortly after posting.
@Gepeto:
I probably won’t. Book 10 is what, 20 years out from now? I will very probably be dead. (Yes, I whine about this a lot.)
@161 – Man, it really is 20 years. Brandon is taking a longer break after book 5. It’s 3 years between books, 6 books left, so that’s 18 years right there. But factor in the break after 5…He hasn’t specified the length, but I’m thinking it’s 3 years extra. So 21 total.
I’m not surprised the two people from Tor don’t like Venli…they seem more interested in depressing characters like Kaladin. I much prefer interesting people like Venli and Shallan and to a lesser extent Dalinar. I love these Venli chapters cuz we are actually learning stuff…I just want more.
I do hope Shallan is cured though and this multiple personality thing goes away. It was cute at first but I think it’s getting a little redundant and close to “jump the shark” level. What more trauma could this young woman possible have gone through?
Two of the names of the “subspecies” of Fused seem to be derived from Semitic languages. The name shanay-im, the Heavenly Ones who wield the Surge of Gravitation, seems close to the Hebrew word for “sky” or “heaven,” shamayim. The name fannaan-im, the Fused who seem to use the Surge of Transmutation, seems to come from the Arabic word for “artists,” fanaan.
@jeff Weskamp: Brandon’s chief assistant, Peter Ahlstrom (who reads these comment threads at least some of the time) is a linguist. I don’t actually know how much Peter has had to do with the languages of Roshar, but I’m sure he knows a lot about Semitic languages. Look at the names of the Unmade, such as Moelach–notice how it’s a slight variant of the ancient Phoenician god Moloch?
@carl: Brandon has stated that the names of seven of the Unmade are derived from the names of ancient Canaanite deities. The two Unmade names that were purely invented are Ba-Ado-Mishram and Yelig-Nar. For those two, Brandon wanted named that sounded more “Lovecraftian.”
Yes, I know. That’s why I pointed out exactly what you said in 168?
You’re saying “Canaanite” but Phoenician is accurate. The Canaanites were part of the Phoenician non-empire, capital Tyre.